Friday, April 2, 2010
Those of you without internet access (wait, what?) may have missed a huge fight spanning multiple e-mails and blogs between YTTH's Stelek and BoLS/Chainfist's Mkerr this week.
This is a situation that, in spite of having said I wouldn't fuck with a stolen dick, I feel is truly worthy of a shot at the old Internet fight, to determine a winner. But we all know that this won't change anything and the war will continue...well it's nice to dream anyway. So, let's find out what happens when two heavy-weights on the 40k scene wave their dicks at each other*.
Due to the epic nature of this fight and the fact that it has stepped well outside of my normal single forum thread format, I'll be including a followup "works cited" post with links to all the relevant articles. You may notice that there are more Stelek posts than Mkerr ones involved. I am not a Stelek yes man. I would not suck him off unless he asked really nicely, there was serious cash on the line, and it was some kind of glory hole situation where I could pretend he was a woman (wait, what?). I do generally trust his advice and feel that I get his mission, though, so I won't pretend to be unbiased...but you probably knew that already anyway. The reason that he is getting a greater representation in number of posts is that he's done a good job of quoting the relevant bits from other threads/e-mails thereby making referencing that shit unnecessary.
Below you will see excerpts from any number of different sources edited to form one coherent thread. I will make zero attempt to maintain any sort of journalistic credibility or chronology with this (sort of like Michael Moore). That would be a waste of time and wouldn't be nearly as funny. As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement. Let the gaming apocalypse begin......
Mkerr- I managed to hit the floor ~watch your step! at Adepticon and collected $850 in pledges for prize money in the Stelek vs. Jwolf Battle Royale (mostly from the Dakka Dakka guys). So the offer stands at free flight, free hotel and $850 in cash if you win. ~you should set this up like a walkathon for kill points. I'll pledge $1 per KP :)
I'm sure that when I get back to Austin, I'll hit up the BOLS and Chainfist guys so that should increase the prize pool again.
If anyone here wants to pledge, just let me know and I'll mark you down. Is that $50 from you, Nurglitch?
Stelek- Sorry, did you just call me out over a money bet that's probably illegal in both states? ~he did, but it's not illegal if you set it up right Are you retarded? ~slander?
Before you (and whatever morons join in) call me whatever, please note I put my marriage above random idiots on the internet. That would indeed be you and yours, in case you confused general idiots with 'drunk idiots at a toy convention putting money in a pot for an imaginary grudge match with people they don't know'--I think that's quite idiotic. ~I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time...going to a convention dedicated to exactly the type of player that your enemy is trying to educate against their will and rally them against him...yay for fucked up samples Please, before you say you weren't drunk...think that one through.
So, instead, I have an idea--give the free flight money to jwolf, we can broadcast the games live from whatever venue you want, and he can personally apologize to my wife. ~Challenge accepted-ish! Stelek demands satisfaction, I say
How about that instead?
Can't blog around my fucking wife because some new cunt might say something like 'miscarriages are hilarious'.
....Why don't you go pound someone elses ass for a while. ~might want to edit that one, ;)
Mine is sore. ~haha
Chaosgerbil- You just said your butt hurts? Don't make it too easy.
If I'm not mistaken it looks like you just accepted the challenge but on your home turf, and with no cash on the line. ~he did
Stelek- My ass always hurts when stupid shows up at the party in my pants. ~que?
Ixitxachitl- In my experience... putting money and tension together with the hobby never ends well regardless of the outcome.
Whatever the outcome of the theoretical match would be, wouldn't help the community, because it'd probably just end up with a bunch of folks shitting all over the losing 'side'. The last thing we need in the online 40k community is more angst and fuel for the fire ~or the winning side still not gaining any credibility...or the gaming apocalypse
Brent- It might seem a tad uncomfortable walking into the lion's den ~it's not that bad when compared to a sore ass from all that pounding - I get that - but you wouldn't be surrounded by a sea of anger, folks wanting to see you embarrassed. Okay, maybe some ~read- a lot... but hell, I'll be there. I get along with everyone, and I'd be happy to hang out on your side of the table, talking trash to Mkerr on JWolf's. Mkerr would get a kick out of that, believe it.
Set the points, roll a mission, and play the game. Bring your toughest list and try to kick his ass. Just like a schoolyard ~everyone will get detention? , you'll be all the better for it, regardless of the results. ~I applaud you for your false sense of good in the world...we all know that nothing good will come of this bullshit
Chumbalaya- As an aside, if anybody wants to pay my way to Austin to play jwolf, or in BoLScon, or whatever, I'd be all for it. Being a starving college student and all, cost is my only barrier. ~thanks for the input chumb, now go eat your Ramen...think you can try and be all sneaky and get free plane tickets...good luck with that
Tehixe- Why don't some of these trash talking clowns who live thousands of miles away from each other just throw down on Vassal for once? ~they don't live that far away, actually. Totally roadtripable. It might not be exactly like real 40k ~which is exactly the problem and why this wouldn't prove anything. The loser just has to say...this was vassal, not 40k I don't accept this loss. (since the terrain is all 2d, you have to be more generous with cover saves) but it might settle at least some of the angst... ~or more likely not
Funk- Okay, if Stelek actually agreed to this wager ~protip he's probably too smart to be goaded into this shit here is how it would play out:
Stelek signs up, loses, not due to lack of skill or army planning but due to blind luck and a lack of round robin. After this, all the jwolf proponents will say "stelek is ALWAYS wrong because he lost a couple of games". ~I gotta agree, a string of losses or wins probably mean two things when two top-tier players clash- jack and shit! Random probability and philosophical differences in how the game is played fuck everything up here. More on this at the end.
Alternatively the exact opposite happens, which is equally absurd. This just seems like an excuse for people to decide something in a way they feel is empirical instead of just thinking instead.
Stelek- I got to play a 'friendly' game, both with a local (from Tau Online) and with the head of WC. Neither game was friendly, it was cock swinging internet retardation at it's finest. ~don't cross the streams! I sucked it up, and I'll never hear the end of either. This is more of that, where's my incentive? ~you cracked the case, there isn't anything to be won here You misunderstand my attacks upon you as attacks upon your character, your person, or your spirit. They are attacks upon the edifice of stupid that YOU are supporting, that is hurting OUR hobby here in the States. ~well there is a fine line there, but I get it. Also not entirely true. "You are retarded" does not equal your gaming philosophy is incorrect.
...played Goatboy ~did he wear those silly goggles. What the fuck happened to the industrial scene...yarn hair, silly goggles...steampunk...blech in Vegas. You know, he just won a GT, right? Of course, that was the year of stupid Dakka maroons challenging me to win with a subpar army book, Demonhunters. Which I did...I won ALL of my games. The only fun one I had was not just with Goatboy, but we became, gasp, friends after a fashion, after that game. Again, beating his Demon army with my (gasp) Demonhunters wasn't exactly difficult--it had nothing to do with skill, I had rock and he had scissors. ~holy shit, humility. Careful, you're gonna fuck up your branding efforts here I won, and it proves nothing. Except of course, that maybe, JUST FUCKING MAYBE, what I've been saying all along is true. I may or may not be the best 40k player around, but I sure as shit build better lists than 99.9% of you, ~I demand you show your math. What's your sample size? Margin of error? I know my tactics and my rules, I don't cheat--and I've beaten many a good player of the game at my many tournament appearances. What, the fact I started talking about how bad it really is AFTER putting up with it for a decade reduces me to non-credible? Seriously, who the fuck are you? You need to HAVE credibility before you can go giving it the fuck out like you and yours are some kind of 40k Gods. ~well their camp has some big wins...in tournament settings with methodologies that you disagree with...oh shit, this could lead to some fucked up circular logic...They win games, but you don't believe their way of playing is correct and vice versa...my brain hurts...If you think being unemployed for 6 months, barely able to make ends meet, ~9 months, I win (dick waving deactivated) and then I tell my wife I'm going on a vacation to Texas to beat some jackass in a game of 40k--if you think that's me being a coward, then enjoy your divorce because it's coming. ~yeah, were I your wife, I would kick your ass
MorbidlyObeseMonkey- But dude, you are being offered a free vacation. ~not my idea of a stress free vacation They have offered to bring your wife along as well! All this, for FREE. ~except for the serious opportunity costs involved, like marriage...and then incidentals, unless the Austin crew is footing a per diem
The way I see it is, if you straight-up refuse to go to any tournaments, and for that matter play against anyone aside from your friends, how do you expect anyone to believe you're as good as you say you are? ~credentials perhaps?
Mkerr- I don't like [Stelek]. ~no fucking way dude, never would've guessed
But since he's chosen the hobby of attacking me and my friends,~wait, who started all this? it's worth my time to prove how a) crazy ~if he loses he's crazy? and b) full of crap he is from time to time. ~so we've backpedaled to he's only wrong sometimes...Mkerr, let's agree that you're both sometimes wrong. From now one you get to be right Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and alternating Sundays, Stelek gets the rest.
A public forum is the best place to suggest someone is mentally ill. ~except that issue of legality. Might want to look into that. Frivolous or not, lawsuits can come from such things. It's not humiliating; it's just like a big intervention ~it's like I'm walking on sunshine!
Stelek- Just fyi, I've playtested most of GW's Codices and main rules since 1995. You haven't, by the way.
Mkerr-Neither [have you]. The difference is that I've never made any of false claims and don't have an uncontrollable need to embellish my accomplishments. ~I'm bragging about not bragging
Stelek- The last public playtest was for Sisters of Battle.
There is a Yahoo group, and there was a whole lot of activity I was involved in.
Gee, are ALL the people who I worked with at GW barring 2, gone now?
Why yes. ~well they have cast off a pretty large number of employees these days
Including those that worked on this project back then.
Guess since there's an NDA involved and retards don't know shit, maybe just maybe ALL of that crap the sack of shit is passing off as his truth, is quite simply put, nothing but lies.
Here's a protip, if you are gonna ask someone at GW, make sure you ask EVERY designer--because THEY control who playtests for them, not Kirby, not some jackass you know in marketing, no one but them.
I mean, if you are gonna lie--at least do it intelligently. Maybe big red text with the teachers mark scares people or something, just makes you look pathetic. ~BOW DOWN BEFORE THE AWESOME MIGHT OF MY BIG RED FUCKING TEXT MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!EXCLAMATION POINT
Mathlete- think the point Mkerr is making is that stelek's main way of arguing with someone is "I've got loads of play testing and game designing experience, so your opinion is of no worth when compared to mine. I alone know what's good for GW/40k, and as such my word is gospel". ~if that were the case, why would he welcome dissenting comments at his site? Why would he openly praise GW's recent game design? Why why why?
TheKingElessar- Yep, cos we all go out and buy stuff that Stelek says is good. ~some of us buy the stuff he says that sucks too. Case in point, roughriders. I know they suck, but I love them and spent a shit ton converting them; not to be competitive, but to play a different kind of game at home...
Bootlickers like you make me sick. Get an opinion of your own, they're 10 for a dime I hear.
Chaosgerbil- Are you saying your tongue has never been near a boot? You can support one side or one person in an argument and not be a toady. ~since when is defending someone you believe in being a toady? If not, then every time you have defended Stelek you would be making yourself sick
TheKingElessar- Never, no. But, as I said above, 4am overreaction. Nonetheless, if DISQUS had some sort of 'ignore' feature, mathlete would be pretty high up that list.
No-one takes Stelek's word as gospel - ~I think there are a few that do especially when so many of us post comments deriding his choices on occasion.
Mkerr- You are commenting here to defend Stelek. As I look back over every conflict I've had with him, you've *always* defended him -- even when he's clearly wrong. ~I need evidence, examples, forensic experts extracting DNA from sperm found at the scene..
I'm happy that you are loyal to your friends ~and that's why we love him, but calling someone else a "bootlicker" because they don't agree with you is pretty ridiculous.
If you want to argue that somehow Stelek *didn't* get caught in a bundle of lies, then I'd love to hear it. ~I'd love to hear how you didn't get caught in a bundle of lies either fuckshit.
TheKingElessar- His ADVICE is good, and that's what I'm defending here. ~it is good Any post I've ever read of mathlete's is offering nothing to the conversation, just his opinion that Stelek is wrong on everything - this helps no-one, and affects nothing. Saying it once, fine, saying it every time one of these threads comes up? That's ****ing annoying.
I don't know if Stelek lied about Games Design or not. However, I DO know that people I know have told me things about unreleased GW stuff would deny it, and if Stelek DID sign an NDA (which is standard GW policy) then he would be well advised to stick to the terms of it. ~too true
steve_990- I love how the internet needs everyone to PROVE it. lol ~hahaha, my sentiments exactly
MorbidlyObeseMonkey- The interwebz doesn't need everyone to prove it, they only want people who claim to table GT winners in 3 turns to prove it. ~so they don't want people to prove it, but they want people to prove it. I both agree and disagree with this That's what happens. Stelek made claims he can't back up, and everyone knows it. ~wait, hasn't he backed up a fair number of those claims?
Stelek- I've tabled many players in 3 turns. I don't know if I've tabled any GT winners in 3 turns. ~seriously stop with the humility, this isn't the "Stelek" that everyone expects Who knows, games from 7 years ago are hard to remember.
...Nobody can. GW deleted those records when they redid their website. If I'm mistaken about that, someone show me where they are.
Mkerr (probably, deleted records are involved here)- Hypothetically speaking, how would you feel about Stelek if you found out that he's just a loud-mouthed, mediocre player that can't win tournaments with his own tuned lists? Would you put as much faith in his advice as you would a player that's winning major tournaments?"
Von- Depends. If following his advice had helped me win a tournament, or more games in general, I'd consider that good advice from someone who can't practice what he preaches
Then again, I wouldn't enter a major tournament (for whatever value of 'major' you're going for here) if the tournament rules weren't to my liking. Conflating gaming, hobby and being a decent human being scores? Turn-off. Fannish comp rules rather than acceptance that some books/builds/items are worse than others and, consequently, best saved for casual games? Turn-off. Soft score system that protects people from having to accept the previous point, and saves the judges from actually ejecting people who can't play nicely with other children? Major turn-off. Three strikes, and I'm out. ~this seems like a good point to bring this to a close. Check out the supporting articles in the works cited post for further reading on this as well as my editorial below.
Wow, what a fucking trainwreck. This is completely pointless and bordering on petty at this point. I think the best thing for everyone would be to stop paying attention to eachother and move on with life. Von brings up an important point without probably being aware of it. These two are both good (possibly great, who knows, who cares?) players. But there are a lot of ways to play this game right now. There is a more literal by the book definition that Stelek supports, where the free market will basically take care of the hobby to make it competitive. That is to say, he supports less regulation (an oversimplification, but haven't you read enough already?). Whereas other players, like Jwolf, believe that the game as written is flawed and must be regulated by an independent party to maintain balance (again an oversimplifiation, but I can't type 90WPM or combo with one hand, and I'm getting tired of writing this). Seeing tons of fan rules, shit scenarios, fucked up comp systems with little or no logic, and overemphasis on painting/sportsmanship and the like I tend to agree more with there being less regulation. Games designers, believe it or not, generally know what the fuck they're doing.
That's neither here nor there, though. My takeaway is that Stelek and JWolf are playing very different games. For that reason, there is little way to test who is better at the game and a meeting between these two wouldn't prove shit, regardless of the outcome. Imagine a Checkers tournament where one player has a regular set of checkers and the other is playing with chinese checkers. Not really the same is it? This also doesn't even begin to take probability into account. While games of chance (like poker and Warhammer) often have star players who use sound tactical knowhow to beat the odds, putting two very evenly matched players against eachother doesn't necesarily mean a fucking thing. Best of 3, 5, 7 games? Doesn't make any difference, the sample size is still too small to get an accurate read on who the better player is in a vacuum. Missions, dice, terrain, the fact that you're interupting the natural flow of events by measuring them, and any number of other minute details will create probibalistic anomolies that will render any small scale tests of prowess all but useless. Now if there were an infinite number of Steleks playing an infinite number of Jwolfs, maybe then we'd be on to something. ====================================================================
*A: nothing will be determined...unless they touch tips, that is.... (not that there's anything wrong with that)