Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 4

"40k You Make Da Call" over on Dakka Dakka is always a good time. Here's how a typical thread over there goes- X asks stupid/obvious question, Gwar answers back like a dick, X gets offended and insults Gwar back, and hillarity ensues.

Let's see if this week's "Daemonhunters Chimera/Rhino Open Topped Firing" thread follows this pattern, shall we. Spoiler alert... It does. As always none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement (how the fuck does Gwar! not have a Gwar avatar, anyway).

ihatehumans- Daemonhunters Codex:

"A Rhino or Chimera using it's top hatch as a fire point will count as open topped if the saving throw of any of its passengers is worse than 3+."

40k Rule Book

"...all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle."

Soooo... all of the passengers can fire? ~Sooooo....fuck no! Oh my freaking God, did you seriously even just ask this question? Someone can disprove this, right?....right...guys....anybody? help?

Uriels_Flame-~is marked by a burning sensation during urination and feelings of serenity believe the rule for firing points comes to play here; with Rhino's having 1, and Chimera having 2. ~who would have suspected that the firing point rules come into play with questions about firing points?

don_mondo- Yep, the open-topped bit only applies for damage results during you opponent's next turn. ~case closed...or maybe it would be if you cited a rule, thanks for contributing nothing.

nosferatu1001- That quote is missing the "in the opponents next shooting phase" part, which explains exactly what is meant by "counts as open topped" ~ahh, imperical evidence at last. So, case closed? Too bad the version I have of the DH codex doesn't have any mention of "in your opponents next shooting phase"

No, you dont get to fire everything out of it, it is a penalty not a help ~intended to be this way, but sort of ambiguously worded

Gwar!-~ahh, I was wondering where you were you troll, you Indeed. Quote the whole rule next time. It is only open topped in your enemies turn, not yours. ~so being a dick and stating something someone else already laid to rest without adding anything new... You, sir, are the most helpful person on the internet.

ihatehumans- Page 33 of the Witch Hunters and Page 30 of the Daemon Hunters codex there is no such line. ~uh oh Please read your Codex instead of making up imaginary rules lines. ~nice It's an easy mistake to make, one I did my self, but it does not specify precisely when or for how long it counts as open topped . It's fair to assume it lasts until your next shooting phase ~it is fair, but the stopping point of being open topped isn't the issue, the beginning point of the rule is, when you can opt to NOT use the top hatch thus voiding the condition and it's effect, but exactly WHEN it comes in to play is shady.

I was hoping for a better explanation of why (obviously) you can't fire everyone, instead of GWAR being all like "HUR QUOTE MOAR PLX" which is terribly unhelpful since as I stated that's the WHOLE sentence from the codex. ~well, then you've come to the wrong place...

How do you think it would look when I try to explain to my local TO that "Well GWAR said read all the rules." ... and they do ... and come to the same conclusion? Remember, it's not "40K You Flame Da Noob" I think this section of the forums is more to explain how AND WHY the rules are interpreted. ~but this wouldn't be fun if that's how it really panned out.

I look forward to a more elaborate and eloquent reply ~good luck with that

Gwar!- Well, considering it doesn't count as open topped until you have declared your shooting, at which point you can hardly go back and say "But it's open topped NOW"... ~this seems to relate to some sort of time travel paradox somehow

And for the Record, the WH Entry explicitly states "when shot at or assaulted". ~eloquence in action, except that it doesn't actually state that. According to the version of the WH codex I have, the open topped fire point rule isn't anywhere to be found at all(page 33...this codex has at least 2 versions with various discrepancies that were printed. I believe this may actually be one of those discrepancies). Hi I'm Gwar!, I've made 15,000 posts here (barely an exaggeration...poor soul needs friends, I think) and am always right- I am above the law!
Spoonermerlin- That's funny where in the original question does it say WH.

If you’re going to bust on him because you thought he did not quote the whole rule don't answer for a codex that's not in the point (even though he brought it up) As Written it never says until you declared your shooting. It says using its top hatch as a fire point.

I know people that would say at the time they are using/firing it is opened top, They are not using it on your opponents turn they stopped when they finished firing.

Otherwise explain how they are using it as a fire point on the other players turn. It should say it was used as a fire point but it doesn’t. ~so somebody who can barely construct a sentence is trying to make syntax based arguments...my head hurts

I believe this should be if you fired that turn then on the other players turn it should be open topped. ~RAI...will it be enough to win you the argument? I'm not the one always pointing to specifically the way things are worded and arguing the points.

ihatehumans- The INAT FAQ mentions the 'added' repair rule to the Rhino that (correct me if I'm wrong, with a page number) is not in the codex, and it explicitly describes the fire points of Rhino and Chimera (including the lasguns, which I can also not find the page for) but doesn't mention ANY ruling on the open topped-ness of firing out of the chimera.

I find this strange as it is obviously an old rule that, ideally, should at least have some clarification (since the new chimera has 5 fire points, no lasguns and no open topped counting).

~Well, have at it. Who's right in this situation? Do we even all have the same rules in our hands due to the number of different printings of these codexes? I went into this expecting to rally against ihatehumans, but as I did my own fact checking with the codex(es) and Faqs, I think he may have some real RAW leverage. Anybody else want to take a crack at solving this clusterfuck? Let the round begin ::ding ding::