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Friday, March 19, 2010

Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 3


Oh shit, now I've done did it. For those of you keeping up with BoLS this week, there have been some pretty awful posts. Nothing new there really, but I've been a little more active than normal with my responses. I didn't think I was being mean or anything, but I managed to get under Big Red's Skin Pretty badly in the Mechdar article (towards the end of the first page of comments). If for no other reason go there because the irony there is priceless.

That was fun for a number of reasons, but I don't think it was fightworthy. Luckily, earlier in the week somebody picked a fight with me here. While trying to explain that although the Exorcist is good, it is not as good as the Immolator in most lists, I was ganged up on by two girls. Under other circmstances, that would probably be awesome. Here, though, not so much.

As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement. Without further ado, I give you this week's train wreck.

Guest- This was a tactics article?

Dethtron- in all fairness he did say that his tactics are "point and click." that's enough to make this a tactics article, right..... ~best tactics ever

in all seriousness, this is seriously overhyped ~I'm seriously for serious about this seriousness. I know that sisters players get no love and all your stuff was pulled off the shelves and you may never get a new codex, but lying about how good a unit is to get people to talk about any army that almost nobody talks about is B.S. This tank is good. Not reliable, but if you have 2 of them you've got an expected value of 6 missiles per turn. ~expected value is actually (6+5+4+3+2+1)/6= 3.5...more on that later Not too bad. It will mess up transports (but so will an autocannon) and it will mess up MCs (but so will most guns), but you're better off taking immolators. They will mess up infantry and they carry ladies who should have meltas, which mess up everything else. Taking any number of exorcists just means you get that many less immos in your army. not the best idea.

Ganmeyde- but these GO TO ELEVEN! ~Spinal Tap win; being on topic fail

Lancks- FYI, you get an average of 3.5 missiles per turn, so two produces 7 shots on average, per turn. ~thanks professor. I'd like to point out that I did recently set the curve on a graduate level stats course, in spite of what my serious mathhammer fail here would suggest.

In my experience, while the Exo is great against everything, it's mainly to there to take out what Sisters can't - long range armour, and barring a nice divine guidance roll, Terminators. S8 AP1 is simply the bane of all termies. ~dear everyone, don't flip out about termies so much. massed fire kills them dead too.

Dethtron- well, if you do the math correctly it's 7 missiles, but if you want to fudge the numbers to prove a point you call it 6. Would you like me to perform a regression to prove the relationship between suck and exorcists? H1: excorcists = good. Ho: excorcists =/- good ~math jokes :)

Lancks- I was told there would be no math! ~haha, you brought up my math fail dickwad

melissia- "you're better off taking immolators"
HAH!

No. No, you are not. ~yes you are you fuckshit Immolators are neat and all, but they can only carry six Sisters. Which means you must take a more expensive squad in order to use them. ~less sisters = more points, at least I'm not the only one failing math today Dominions pay out of their arse for special weapons, Celestians aren't exactly cost-effective, and Retributors cannot fire their expensive weapons and move at the same time. And all of these are more expensive than an Exorcist. ~more expensive but for more shit. what's harder to kill 1 single weapon tank or a transport full of hawtness?

Dominions run 200+ points for four meltaguns, immolator, and veteran, depending on how the vet is kitted out. Celestians run 160+ points for two meltaguns, immolator, and veteran. Retributors run a lulzworthy 230+ points for four multi-meltas, immolator, and veteran. ~and are a terrible idea to take. we agree on something at least. All of these are much more expensive than the Exorcist, and yet disgustingly short ranged. ~unless you factor in movement, then the range of the immo is not so shitty. It's called a threat range, you should learn how to use it, dumbass

No, sir, you are not better off taking immolators. You are better off NOT taking immolators.
PS, Immolators are vastly overpriced (lol, and the squads that can take them aren't much better. As heavy support choices, they are laughable at best, because they are so easy to destroy. ~1 immolator is easy to destroy. 6-8 not so damn much. Thanks for proving nothing.

Immolators are like overpriced razorbacks. ~razorbacks overprice, now I know you're an idiot Okay, no, that's not right.

Immolators ARE overpriced razorbacks.

rob0362 - Could not have said it better myself but they will not bust open AV14 anytime soon ~wow, heavy flamers can't pop AV14, how did you ever deduce that? That's why you take meltas like I already said. Learn to read.

RedScorpionsGirl- The sisters ARE getting a new 'dex... It's titled "Forces of the Inquisition". ~believe it when I see it you wishlisting sack of shit The exorcist is a wonderful tank, and it IS reliable, the only downfall with using it is that you need line of sight, so make sure whatever you are going after is dead. Almost nobody talks about this army because all the talk is bashing it. ~no, if you listen, a lot of people who know how to use WH love the army There's nothing wrong with this and Daemonhunters, they are both competitive armies, with their current 'dex, you just need to understand how they work, and the right type of build you need to do to have them winning every game. When I actually choose to get my sisters out for our local tourney, the general reaction is oh #*%& she's got her sisters! When I play them, I regularly place in the top 3. ~is there a female analog to dick waving? Immolators, while effective, are not the best solution for everything also. ~unless it's loaded up with a combination of anti armor and anti infantry units for super duality I can answer any problem fun times You need to have those hard hitting shots from time to time, when something big comes your way, or there's something that's being a problem to you.

melissia- Every rumor points at us getting a grey knights codex late this year or early next year, which means no forces of the Inquisition. ~blah blah blah I don't have a source on this, I'm just making up shit for the sake of posting something. Besides, the Sisters aren't actually a part of the Inquisition to begin with.

Dethtron- awesome, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

things I didn't say or imply:

1) the inquisition sucks- I actually bring a DH inquisitor around with my guard in most games. mystics and psychic hoods are a good time. I am also really afraid of units like immolators in the hands of people, who unlike those posting in this forum, know how to use them. I think both codexes need to have some things fixed in them to bring them up to par rules and points cost-wise, but I still like the forces of the inquisition. ~fix them assassins. I love them, but they cost too damn much

2) the immolator is the end all be all of inquisition's vehicles and will solve all your problems- you would have to be an idiot to think that a TL heavy flamer armed immolator could alpha strike vehicles and answer every threat. Not being an idiot, I didn't even imply it.... To run immolators properly you need to support them and outfit them correctly.

Let me break a scenario down for you that will show why I would take immolators over exorcists any day of the week:
-your opponent has a chimera with melta vets in it or a rhino/waveserpent/trukk/devilfish with anything in it, but you get to go first.
-you can pick an exorcist
- for the exact same points you can take 5 inquisitorial stormtroopers with 2 melta guns in an immolator

If you take the exorcist you will probably kill the tranport. Then whatever's inside is still alive and will be a threat to you in your turn. If you're lucky and your exorcist survives, you might get to throw 3.5 missiles into the squad that just got out. Unfortunately some of those will miss and your opponent is probably in cover, so you will wound a guy or two. Wow, that's some amazing performance!

If you take the Immolator/stormtroopers the stormtroopers should be able to slag the transport. Now the unit inside the enemy transport has to disembark, leaving them bunched up together. Oh sweet, you still have a TL heavy flamer to roast the, now bunched up, guys whose ride you just exploded. Oh did I forget to mention that you're also now a scoring unit. Oh and you could have just moved 12" and still done all of the above.

Now multiply that across your army- sneak 6-8 of those immolators in and you've got a scary party. Back them up with some more anti armor- like autocannon guard squads or maybe move stuff around so that your stormtroopers are riding in a Valk or a vendetta, ~I don't think that's legal in hindsight, stupid inducting FAQ, putting them in chimerae liberated from your inducted guard is a good time, though and you've got something serious to bring to the game.

If you showed up with those exorcists I would laugh at you, kill your scoring units, and then blow up your exorcists if I still had time. ~half true. I do play against a friend who uses these, and they wreak havoc on my Tyranid MCs. My mech guard isn't a huge fan either, but I still think Immos are better here.

And last, as far as "codex the inquisition" is concerned...good luck with that. You really think that while GW is focusing on revenue generating projects like fixing fantasty, Dark Eldar, Necrons, etc etc etc... that the inquisition is going to make an appearance this year. Could happen yes, but not likely. So as far as the rumor mill goes, I will believe it when I see official word come from a reliable source.

melissia- Stormtroopers cannot purchase Immolators as transports, ~no shit, sherlock and so you have to take up both a troops choice and a heavy support choice for that selection. Furthermore, stormtroopers SUCK. ~facepalm

I'm not being mean or biased. ~oh noes, you offended my stormtroopers, how ever will they live down this shame? THEY DO. Stormtroopers are one point less per model than Sisters of Battle, and yet Sisters of Battle have power armor, bolters, better morale/pinning rules (BoSL), and Acts of Faith . Stormtroopers get carapace, the old hellguns, and frags, no special morale rules, and so on.

That immolator is easy to pop, and when it's popped the stormtroopers inside are easy to kill. ~and cheap enough that I could give a fuck that they died And there's only five of them anyway. Indeed, it's easier to destroy the immolator and five guys in it than it is to destroy the chimera and the TEN guys in it.~serious example fail with no expanation to back it up And all of this for roughly the same price? No thanks, I'd rather take a unit that doesn't suck. The exorcist can take out the chimera with ease long before it can ever get in range to deliver those melta shots, and then turn its guns on other targets--~only to let my other melta squads still make it through to kill you letting your Sisters mop up the veterans with a flamer/bolter burst.

No, sir, you are still wrong. The immolator is nothing more than an overpriced razorback. It costs the same amount to get an immolator with tl multimeltas as it does to get a predator with with AC and HBs, except the predator also gets free smoke and searchlight, and front armor 13. And thus the predator doesn't suck like the Immolator does. ~i'm glad that MM Immos and Predators have anything to do with this discussion

The Exorcist IS the end-all be-all of heavy support vehicles in the codex. Sisters don't really need assistance with anti-infantry, they're one of the best armies in the game for that purpose (bolters and flamers en masse, oh yes),~except for Tau, and IG, and a bunch of other armies and for anti-armour at range nothing in the army can beat the Exorcist because there IS no other anti-armour at range. Even against horde armies the immolator sucks, the penitent engines and retributors are what you'd want against those armies (yes, the p.engine is a better choice than the immolator). ~please shut the everloving fuck up before you make a bigger idiot out of yourself

Dethtron- Well you are officially a lost cause madame. Thanks for playing and enjoy sucking at WH. 'But I win against my local group...' blah blah blah way to be a big fish in a small pond. I could try and tell you all of the logic holes in your argument, but alas, they would fall on deaf ears. Plus regardless of what I say you will continue to put words in my mouth...I never said Stormtroopers were getting immolators as a dedicated transport. It should be obvious to anyone with the codex that they can't.

For anyone interested in playing better let me debunk some insanity:

"stormtroopers suck"- except that 5 stormtroopers are the single cheapest/most efficient way to get 2 meltas in the game. For the record, though, I wouldn't put these guys in an immolator. They would most likely get a chimera (stolen from an IG infantry platoon for the better rules). Buff ladies w/ meltas and/or flamers go into the immolators.

"the immolator is easy to pop"- really, how long did that take you to figure out? That's why you take A LOT of them. Sure your opponent can kill one or two, but can they kill 6 or 8? They might do so over the course of the game, but you still will have been able to use them to bring unlimited amounts of pain on your foe and drop your troops wherever you need to have them to score.

"And there's only five of them anyway. Indeed, it's easier to destroy the immolator and five guys in it than it is to destroy the chimera and the TEN guys in it."- except that the contents of your immolator have power armor and are more survivable against small arms. Plus, the points costs for an immolator full of nuns with guns will run you fairly close to the same points cost as Chimera/melta vets. (note codex not handy, numbers pulled from my @ss, but fairly close).

Don't listen to the melissias rant about not having ranged anti-armor for sisters. For one, an immolator with melta amed troops in it can move 12" and fire. 12" deployment +12" + 12" melta range ~plus 2" disembark range means you can hit your opponent on turn 1 if you need to. Also the inquisition has this sweet ranged anti-tank option called "inducted guard." Load up on autocannons and you can get 12 S7 shots for slightly more than the price of an exorcist ~or actually closer to 2 exorcists in cost...oops, again with my math skills. and that last bit about penitent engines is so far off base and out of left field that this is the only comment I have (_l_) ~maturity win!

melissia- I stand by everything I say. If you take stormtroopers, you are picking the weaker troops choice of the army. Not I. I am not sucking at a WH army, I don't PLAY a WH army. I play Sisters. Sisters are stronger than a WH army. ~hooray for pointless semantics arguments, surely that will win favor for you

The army is quite damn strong, something most people wouldn't really want to face off against. There's more firepower in a properly put together Sisters army than any Stormtrooeprs based army can ever hope to compare with.

An example 2000 points Sisters army. And this isn't even the best one can come up with, just something easy to use and made on the fly. ~totally not the best, but not as bad as I was expecting, honestly


Canoness w/blessed weapon, frags, book, cloak, auspex
-- 8 Celestians w/Frags, 2x Flamers
-- Veteran w/bolt pistol, eviscerator
-- Rhino*

Canoness w/Eviscerator, bolt pistol, book, cloak, auspex
-- 8 Celestians w/Frags, 2x Flamers
-- Veteran w/bolt pistol, eviscerator
-- Rhino*

9 Battle Sisters w/melta, heavy flamer
-- Veteran w/BoSL, bolt pistol, brazier of holy flame
-- Rhino*

9 Battle Sisters w/melta, heavy flamer
-- Veteran w/BoSL, bolt pistol, brazier of holy flame
-- Rhino*

9 Battle Sisters w/melta, heavy flamer
-- Veteran w/BoSL, bolt pistol, brazier of holy flame
-- Rhino*

9 Battle Sisters w/melta, heavy flamer
-- Veteran w/BoSL, bolt pistol, brazier of holy flame
-- Rhino*

9 Battle Sisters w/melta, heavy flamer
-- Veteran w/BoSL, bolt pistol, brazier of holy flame
-- Rhino*

Exorcist

Exorcist

Exorcist


The army has 70 power armored models, tons of bolters, cover ignoring templates, lots of Acts of Faith, lots of morale boosts (LD10 with super-stubborn to quite a few squads), lots of meltaguns, and of course, three Exorcists, which if you focus fire on the Exorcists you'll leave yourself open for a short-ranged Sisters rush. ~except wasting early firepower on exorcists would be dumb, most good players would want to stop the coming rhino rush, aka the real threat. Exorcists aren't scary enough for me to target them early on.

And of course, Sisters are, as a rule, best at short range. And if they don't focus on the Exorcists, that means they get to pound the enemy with impunity. I'd say it's a win-win for me.


*The Rhinos use the Imperial Armour rules, but frankly both Sisters and WH benefit from said rules so don't complain. ~oh so your "awesome" list turns out not to be legal. Way to go

Pinto- what about an immolater spam list? Version i found was: ~maybe not the best version of this I've ever seen, but it's workable
Palatine - Bolter, BoSL - 42 pts
5 Cel Bodyguard - 2 Meltas - 85 pts
Immolator - Smoke - 68 pts

3x
5 Celestians - 2 Meltas, 1 Vss w/BoSL - 100 pts
Immolator - Smoke - 68 pts

2x
10 Battle Sisters - Hvy Flamer, Melta, Vss w/ BoSL - 151 pts
Rhino - Smoke - 53 pts

1x
5 IST - 2 Meltas - 70 pts

2x
5 IST - 2 flamers - 60 pts

3x
6 Dominions - 3 Flamers - 95 pts
Immolator - Smoke - 68 pts

3x
HS Immolator - Smoke - 68 pts

melissia- Also? Only the twin-linked heavy flamers can fire after moving twelve inches. Transport rules still prevent the meltas from firing after moving at cruising speed.

You fail at reading rules... ~OMG, I thought I told you to shut up. Keep digging yourself into that hole.

Dethtron- So there I was about to compliment you on having a well thought out and not wretchedly bad army list, even if it would still get rolled by good players. Pretty good redundancy/duality throughout the army and no super garbage units in there. Plus you win at using the word "fluff" successfully and not as an excuse to field a fraking awful foot army. And then you open your fat mouth and pour out this insanity: ~see above quote


I'm assuming you mean you can't fire from the fire points, which is true. Lucky for me I know about this thing caled disembarking that you can do from a transport and still fire (bonus, this gives you an extra 2" + 25mm range for you model). You may want to consult pages 66-67 ~note a citation, this will come up later of the main rules before embarassing yourself further. So next time you feel like opening your snotty mouth, you might want to try and be right.

Also, tactical pro tip for everyone who wants to run the immolator spam list or use their transports for fun and profit. If you have three vehicles, form a triangle/circle with them wth just a tiny space between the vehicles. disembark a unit into the center of your ring of transports and use the small gap to shoot from. This means your vulnerable unit should now have cover, can still shoot enemies, and can't be assaulted. Circle your wagons! With a well done sisters list, you should be able to have 3ish different circles going at once.

melissia- Tell me where it says you can. ~I did already! Could you be more stupid? I do not believe that just because you disembark after moving 12" you can suddenly magically fire again, even though if you did not disembark you could not. ~except for the part of the rules that says a disembarked unit may shoot, but not move. blech...

Furthermore? That army list would not be torn apart. That army list is stronger than anything you could put together that includes Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. ANYTHING. ~LOOK HOW LOUD I CAN TYPE


Expletive Deleted- If only there was some way to buy immolators by themselves in that codex. ~you, sir are a sarcastic bastard. I think I like you Perhaps some kind of heavy support section of the force org. chart or something. Maybe in 6th edition. Maybe by then GW will have also added some kind of rule where units can start the game embarked on transport vehicles even if its not their dedicated transport.
Next challange: figure out why you counter examples all consist of the worse case scenarios. Multi-meltas on the immo, WTF. Oh, and apparently you've discovered that a 6 retributers with heavy weapons costs a lot and is terrible when mounted in an Immo. Its a shame these are the only options available to you. ~haha

Swinging at straw man seems a bit hypocritical when your personal theme song seems to be "If I only had a brain". ~how many movie references can we throw in this thread anyway? Have fun in the vacuum you love arguing in... ma'am (since we're pretending to be polite).

PS: I just learned this the other day: apparently you can take more than 3 immolators at a time. Wild right? ~I know, crazy isn't it.

melissia- Stop making an idiot of yourself and read my posts. I stated they also suck as a heavy support choice because there are better heavy support choices.

Like Exorcists.

Immolators are nothing more than overpriced razorbacks. ~you keep saying this and I have no idea what it means

RedScorpionsGirl- A few points I was making: ~oh sweet, you're back this should be eye opening

1. I agree with Melissa, stormtroopers suck in comparison to the advantages you get when you utilize sisters instead. ~I agree with myself...they're good

2. I run a purely sisters army, so there wouldn't be any stormtroopers or non sisters models, including inquisitors. ~My army has fluff, so it's allowed to suck

3. Nut for bolt, I find the flamers interesting especially when you give them holy promethium, but given the choice, I will field 2-3 exorcists every time. To me, when I have used them, they have an overall use in the list I have. ~so when you don't use them what are you using exactly? I see the usage of the Immolator, but I still don't want to field that many of them.

4. If you check the GW site, the ability to purchase both witchhunters/daemonhunters codexes has been removed. Same tactic that occured when the previous 2 codexes (Wolves and 'nids) have come out. ~except that was done just before the new shit came out. GW still hasn't even announced the existence of this Codex: Inquisition yet I also agree that I'm waiting for the official stance, but I don't think that's going to be for another 2-3 months yet. Hopefully they won't follow through with removing Dark Eldar...I like the models. ~Viva Squats!

5. To each their own. I run my sisters and grey knights a certain way, as does anyone else who plays. ~I can't fault you on this stance I disagree with someone saying that the pure lists aren't competitive, because they are, they just need to be built with an in depth understanding of the special rules available to your particular army (the same as any other army). I enjoy playing fluff based armies, and for the most part, those that I have made doing this have done extremely well. There are certain things I just won't field or utilize, as they don't fit my play style or army.


A reasons I am waiting to see what's up.

1. Here is the link for the witch hunters codex (the link you click on the left side of the page after choosing what army on the GW site). The page is blank, and when you click on the view entire army product list, the codex title bar is there, and the link/price absent.
Check for yourselves:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armyS...

2. Same problem when I checked the daemonhunter's codex. Again, here is the link:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armyS...

3. On the UK site, there isn't even a codex option at all in the daemonhunter or witchhunter categories.

4. On the UK site, the actual box of 10 sisters is no longer available, it is only blisters currently listed. Grey knights, power armour box of 5, are also missing.
When the link shows up on the right side of the page for them, they are listed as no longer available.
5. Basing on the previous 4, this is the same manner in which the wolves were subtly introduced, then made official. They went through wanting to sell as much of the old product as feasably possible before the new product was brought out. While it might infuriate all of us, that makes good business sense, get rid of the old stock at full value if at all possible. If you think I'm just starting something about GW having something up with both these armies, check it out for yourselves, that's why I provided the links. If they didn't come through, just go to the GW site and check for yourself, I'm just trying to bring to light the obvious.

13 comments:

Damon said...

Melissia was booted off of bolterandchainsword.com for being totally inflexible with here Sisters love.

Now she's BoLS's problem, I see.

Anonymous said...

I seem to get the impression that Melissia is a fat white trash chick who thinks shes hot. Dammit I another feeling that its is closer to the truth than anyone would like it to be.

Anthony Yeates said...

It's nice to see BoLS's community making sense as always eh? Expletive Deleted has to get my vote, I'm a sucker for sarcasam ^^.

Justin said...

Nah, I hope Melissia is hot as hell, since she's already proven she's stupid.

Stupid and hot = win.

At least, that's how it worked when I was in college...sigh...

But fat and stupid is closer to reality.

The Lord of Excess said...

LOL ... awesome stuff man. I have to really watch myself on BoLS. I get internet-nerd-rage easily there. On BoLS there are so many people that just don't have clue one about mini gaming. Most of the BoLS trolls need to rediscover MTG and drop 40K IMO. I'm still a follower of BoLS though as sadly they do seem to get the rumors early ... the rest is just talk radio style "lets piss people off so they post" type of stuff. Its clearly a commercial enterprise ... half of the main contributors have their very own pay to download PDF tactics guides, etc. and anyone who wants to rip fellow gamers off should be flogged. As you've demonstrated here its just endless mathhammery ranting by mostly people who haven't the faintest idea about anything they are typing. I'm glad others see this though and your mockery of it is highly entertaining ... keep up the good posts fellow ranter! Good stuff man thanks again :)

The_King_Elessar said...

BoLS = LoLS.

Dethtron said...

Koenig Elessar der Erste:

Your link is now posted. I had it up before, but it didn't show up. I suspect that time travel was involved.

Also, since you love my destruction of your native tounge, you may like to know that I often refer to BoLS as the Bell-End of Lost Souls :)Bob's your uncle!

The_King_Elessar said...

Indeed he is, have you met?

...I actually DO have an uncle Bob.

No, he's not a Peeler. Research THAT one.

John Laubersheimer said...

ooooh, stripper or copper. Tough call.

The_King_Elessar said...

Latter. I'm unaware of any tendency he has toward the former...and I'd rather keep it that way. lol

Chumbalaya said...

mumble mumble mumble tea kettle!

The_King_Elessar said...

You teabag a kettle?!?!?!?

The_King_Elessar said...

PS - Dethtron, enjoy.

http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/upload/2009/06/ask_dr_isis_--_dealing_with_pr/Naked%20Bea%20Arthur.bmp