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Friday, June 25, 2010

Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 17

Did anybody not read the Darkwynn's Corner: Unstoppable Blood Angels post on BoLS this week? If you didn't, let's just say that Darkwynn published what many would consider a bland, competitive list, that brought out the worst in all of the fluff bunnies who still don't seem to get it.
For the record, I'm neither a true "competitive" gamer or a "fluff bunny," but more like an in between moderate who recognizes that competition and fluff can and should to some extent exist together. I even think the list Darkwynn wrote was actually fluffy, but not as hard a list as can be built with the BA codex. I think my appearance in the fight will illustrate my point and reveal some things about my personality to boot. As Kennedy already proposed rebranding the competitive gamers to "tactical gamers" to avoid negative connotations about competitive gaming, I propose that fluff gamers may want to choose a new name like "narrative gamers" or something similar. You guys have a lot of negative mojo built up as well. Or we could just say fuck it and stop labeling people. Yeah, human history has totally taught us that that will work, right... right? anybody?

Moving right along, I will warn up front that this will be a LONG one. It also might be the last time I do this for a couple of weeks, but don't worry FNIF will still happen, I'm working on getting a couple of surprise guest authors to take over while I deal with some school stuff on the next couple Fridays and take a break from writing (these things are really draining, if you hadn't guessed). But, I will go to my hiatus on a high note. This week's post is even going to come with a money back guarantee: if this isn't the best FNIF you've ever read I'll give you your money back. This week has it all: name calling, celebrity cameos, logic, poor logic, comedic one liners, and Dethtron getting off his ass and bringing something to the fight.

You'll see, it's going to be a fun ride if the editing doesn't give me an aneurysm. As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement. I will snowmobile the idiocy in my signature red text. The chronology on this one is a little bit fucked, but it wasn't an easy task to condense 250+ Disqus comments into a coherent read. After you're done reading make sure you visit the poll this week at the top right side of your screen. It's going to be a hotly contested battle and I think you're going to like some of the choices. Can Brent pull out a second win? Will Chumbalaya bring home the andouille? Will I eke out my first ever win since I'm kind of a big deal? Is it possible for Zingbaby to be more of an ass? Who knows, just vote and we'll see if we can post some record voter turn out this week. Lurkers unite!

Zingbaby- A BOLS spam ~you will be sick of this word and "douche" by the end of reading this list... what a surprise. Well I hope you have fun at least. ~and this got 20 likes? Yikes.

Noxx- Anybody who disparages WAAC gets a "like" from me regardless of context. ~can I petition for a dislike or fuck you button? Doesn't make me ignorant, just makes me totally uncaring of context when I see an opportunity to "dislike" WAAC culture, which is effectively what "liking" that post achieved. ~so blindly following doesn't make you ignorant? I hear there are some tea parties you might be interested in.

Brent- It's Hard Boyz. What, he should tie one arm behind his back and dump some random miniatures on the board? ~yes, but only after walking uphill through the snow to get to and from the tournament

Its the nature of the event. Every point matters. He won't have fun if he buys a plane ticket and gets the crap kicked out of his hobby army.

...I should know...

(By the way Nick, if you win you should call the army the Lawnmower.)

Zingbaby- I'm sorry but no... and nice sucking up there. ~I'm sorry, but suck my cock. Why is everybody who makes sense a sycophant or a douche to you?

Surely anyone could have come up with the Leaf Blower list - ~yes, several people out there independently came up with it prior to it having a silly name. Probably because it's a fun and solid way to play guard. but the fact that it was broadcast here on a very popular sight for one has changed 40k gaming EVERYWHERE... and not for the better. ~blah blah blah hyperbole blah blah To cause that much damage for a few wins? ...because it's "Hard Boyz"? ~exaggerate much?

The now infamous "leaf blower" list is NOT even fun to play with, let alone against ~hey I have an idea, stop making broad generalizations based on information that you pulled out of your ass. If it weren't fun, why would SOOOO many people have adopted this type of list?. We all want to win - but when winning becomes the ONLY thing that matters, then why even bother with models at all? ...why not just use coins and little scraps of paper? ~so in what is about to become a trend of you blasting holes in your own argument, you have now just slit your own wrists (oh if only that were not meant figuratively). Since we are not playing with coins and paper we must all care about something other than winning. The only thing I care about now is exposing you for the piece of shit that you are.

This is like a repeat of the past with 3rd edition... the reason we ended up seeing such aggressive "COMP Score" requirements for a while. Except now the information, via places like BOLS, spreads SOO much faster and within a month there is a 'Leaf Blower' at every club.

Brent- Nice trolling. What, that's not what you were doing?

I can suck up if I wanna - think it will help?

Yes, the internet gives folks the option of downloading and playing a netlist: that's here, that's staying. ~it doesn't seem to have killed MTG, which had a community that was much quicker to adopt the Internet and has a game that is much easier to play a downloaded list. Getting a couple new cards is a little easier than putting together 8 Chimerae

But my buddy built a very similar list a week after the 'dex was released, with no help from Darkwynn. Canny players out there will always search for an advantage and it was inevitable that the build was going to make its rounds. ~preach it

It's important to learn how to adapt. I've literally spent the better part of the last year learning how to play my current, competitive list... that's a whole other level of understanding that one simply can't get from downloading a netlist. ~so you're saying that without a good player a list isn't worth much... why doesn't everybody understand this? Stop nitpicking lists and learn to suck less people

I'm okay with comp if that's the type of tournament it is. This is Hard Boyz.

Whining is a no-no.

EDIT: Respectfully yours with no sucking up - Brent

reecius- Dude, it's ard boyz, of course he is brining a hard list. How can that possibly be surprising and why are you crying about it? ~must be a case of sandy vagina

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions but I swear, some people look for reasons to cry about stuff. If you don't like competitive gaming that is fine, but why go out of your way to bad mouth someone else's fun? ~well because it's fun, of course. now you're bad mouthing my fun. you go to hell, sir Some of the most antagonistic people on the net are those who claim to only play the game for fun ~or are me :) . But woe to anyone who plays the game differently or, gasp, competitively as some of the "casual" gamers are the most vocally and spitefully opposed to it. ~sweet merciful crap, I've tried to get this type of argument across before and it always seems to fall on dead ears. Why doesn't anybody understand the irony? I blame Alanis

If you don't like tournament play, don't participate, simple as that. No reason to trash talk those who enjoy it as you contribute nothing to the community and only increase hostilities.

Oh and P.S., they do game competitively in Europe, and they have plenty of no comp events, just like here in the states.

Dethtron- Seriously Brent, if you don't admit you're wrong soon this is going to end up like the end of "Freaks" with a horde chasing you around chanting 'one of us!' over and over while that little nugget guy chases you around with a knife in his teeth. ~thanks for that nugget of film humor. next time you try and contribute you should try speaking in a way that people might understand.

ps, you and I should start a club dedicated to esoteric movie references called "D**K Move and Strictly average going strictly over your head" or something like that. I'm just saying... ~so yay for me sneaking more inside humor and a dick joke into that sentence. that's sure to win people over...

Zingbaby- This point has been made elsewhere - but the game of 40k simply wasn't designed to handle this level of doucher-spam, "power-gaming" list building. ~hmmm then why have the newer codices made building a larger variety of redundant, competitive lists possible? I don't think that's an accident. Could it be that you're still talking out your ass? GW designers have said so in interviews and it's even still up on their website.

Darkmustwins list is extremely unsportsmanlike. ~no, using the tools available to you isn't unsportsmanlike. Cheating, being a dick, or complaining and whining are very unsportsmanlike, though. I know for a fact that you're doing at least 2 of those things. Further it is ruining the reputation of a very good and characterful codex. ~how, by giving it character and saying that marines can run a fluffy list that can compete? This just seems like a portion of a Blood Angels company to me. Are you saying that all those fluff bunnies who've built a company with 6 redundant tactical squads are not fluffy? More importantly though, as we've seen with the 'leaf blower', monkey-see-monkey-do, these uber doucher-spam lists are making their way into non "face rape" games and clubs. ~if you don't want to play against that type of list, talk to your opponent about it. Or, suck it up and acknowledge that you may need to start playing better.


"...the game system needed to catch up with the hobbyists, so to speak. But to make this work we assume gamers will play in a friendly way. This game requires you to play with a gracious, cooperative spirit. You have to make the game work for you, your opponent and the story you're creating. It is a move away from the ultra-competitive style that has become more prevalent in 40K over the recent years." ~nothing in this jumps out and says you can't play a tough game with a competitive list and want to win. What I'm seeing here is that they're trying to get people to treat each other with respect; something you're not doing. This is more a rally against needless rules lawyering and being a generally unpleasant person than anything else.

But I realize uber spammers choose to ignore those very few (common sense) rules/suggestions that get in the way of their winning... even when they are called 'THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE'. ~which you're interpreting wrong and then forcing your misguided interpretation down our throats. I won't often say someone's opinion is wrong, but your opinion is wrong and you suck crap.

Chumbalaya- Suck less, then you won't have to rage about the mean powergamers beating your crappy army. ~way to give power gamers a good name there Chumby

Zingbaby- Lol, I don't know what back woods high school you dropped out of, but how about contributing something useful to the conversation? ~well that tone will surely help your cause

Every single one of your comments in this entire thread are the same retarded nonsensical bs...

My main point was that darkwin's extremely visible introduction to the leafblower and other-codex equivilents (like this list) was ultimately bad for the game. ~how is trying to get people to think more tactically a bad thing. We all have access to the same information. Somebody can play the list or think about how they can handle the list. Just because you're obviously deficient in one area of thinking doesn't give you the right to bitch. I'm not personally having a problem against them.

You are clearly just too stupid to have any idea what is being spoken about here. ~and perhaps you are too stupid to realize that nobody is actually talking here. Go back your idiot myspace teenage fan group ...yeh dooode Pwoned cool suck less awesome crappy darkwin rulz 4eva.

Chumbalaya- Something useful? Like whining about how one dude totally ruined 40k by putting together an army that everybody saw as good when the Codex dropped? ~now that's how you make a comeback.

Seriously, the only people complaining are the idiots who have consistently managed to miss the short bus driven by BoLS, Dakka, Warseer and other popular sites. It's 5th edition, it's been this way for a while. It's only finally caught on, and only tenuously, because popular sites have somehow managed to reach the protohumans who still think that las/plas and infantry gunlines are "t3h awesome!" ~footdar for ever! what you thought I could go through a whole FNIF without mentioning them?

Suck less, lose your scrub mentality and you may just find that there's a lot more to 40k than playing the same crappy army and whining about the new shiny codex or build while everybody with half a brain is learning how to beat it and improve their game. ~a-fucking-men

Zingbaby- First of all, you obviously didn't read any of the previous thread and just made an uninformed, idiotic knee-jerk reply - that part is clear. ~first of all, fuck you, your reading comprehension is far weaker

Though this was certainly an improvement for you. So let me state, I'm not having any trouble with any list personally... and had you actually read what I've been saying you'd see that you actually are totally agreeing with my point. ~wait, what?

Monkey-see-monkey-do - Those 'protohumans' are exactly the retarded newbs that made the impact of the 'leaf blower' so drastic, by mindlessly copying what they found online - as they will do with this new list. Now if we could just eliminate them - sure that would be fine. ~way to miss the point there buddy.

My problem with this list is it's a pathetic spam list... that BA codex is so f@cking cool, with soo many great units and models.... and he took THAT list? ...melta spam? ...~yeah since BAs totally can't fit more melta per squad than other marines, by design of the codex. now all of these retard protohumans are going to jump off the same cliff - while the rest of them, as you stated, will lose and cry foul, rather than learning to win... and the cycle of suck continues... ~too bad- and I'm as surprised as you are- that a lot of people actually gave this list some shit in the comments.

Chumbalaya- Then set a better example rather than rage and vent on the net just to have self-admitted trolls like myself call you on your self-righteous bull plop. Show the newbs the limitations of such a list and what new stuff they can make with some practice and imagination.

I don't see a huge problem with the list, other than its reliance on AV11 METAL BAWKSES and lack of real dakka outside of melta range. It's not the best BA can put out, but it's better than a lot of the poorly built "one of everything, variety with no thought to how the army works together" you see cropping up and upheld by said whiny newbs as the exemplars of awesomeness.

The BA book is like any other 5th edition Codex, it's got a ton of variety and viable builds/playstyles inside. It's well balanced internally and with other 5th edition books, something the scrubs seem to be having difficulty grasping while they throw out the same nonsense I've heard since 3rd ("Waah, special characters are OP!" "Waah! Somebody took 2 of the same unit!" "40k isn't balanced, durr"). ~I think it's much more balanced than a lot of people give it credit for. So no more of this army ranking, please....

We pretty much agree on the whole "stupid lemmings play middle-of-the-road list because BoLS said so," but since I'm trying to get featured on the next FNIF I must inform you that your momma so fat, when she wears high heels she strikes oil. Also your face is ugly and you are adopted. ~there you go. that's how it's done.

UltramarineFan- Amazing as it may seem the usa does not constitute 'everywhere' ~what are you talking about? USA USA USA!

Zingbaby- Indeed you are correct. I should have said EVERYWHERE in the US... because the European gamers are nothing like the gamers here. ~wow, you need to get out more. While there are cultural differences out there, the Internet is having a pretty good homogeonizing effect on 40K. Open your eyes.

In the US it's _mostly_ about win-at-all-cost, min/max, dual-lash, nob biker, razorwire, leafblower, SPAM SPAM SPAM - win before all else... in Europe that is not the case at all. ~50% of your statistics seem to have been made up 75% of the time.

Noxx- That's good to hear. I obviously just have bad luck in Europe - seem to run across douchebags all the time. ~haha

The Dave- Funny, then, how the UK GT 1st and 2nd place armies were Dual Lash/Oblit Spam. Sounds like douchebags to me... ~oh shit, hard evidence. Run while you still can Zingbaby.

BuFFo- Your ignorance only serves to perpetuate this Myth that American players are more blood thirsty than their English counterparts.

Fact - Most tourneys in the US REQUIRE soft scores across the boards. The only major tournament that does not is the 'Ard Boyz. Most of the tournaments in the UK have done away with Soft Scores years ago. ~really. You're actually going to try using logic and facts. Really
This can be easily figured out by taking 30 minutes and checking, online, any random US tourney versus and random UK tourney.

Knowledge is power. Shame you refuse to use it ~and knowing is half the battle, etc.

UltramarineFan- Hmm now use your information and actually think about what it means. As you have stated most of your tourneys require soft scores whereas ours don't, now why would that be? Probably because they are more focussed on winning and thus can't be trusted to just have fun on their own. ~I think you might need to learn a few things about causality even if you are raising an interesting point Now I'm not saying that this is the case with all American players but I am saying that the problems of the 'metagame' and that WAAC players in general are more common in the USA.

Knowledge is power. Shame you haven't thought about it. ~good one, lol

Zingbaby- Most tournaments here "REQUIRE" soft scores BECAUSE THEY HAD TO. ~nobody forced them to. In my mind the soft scores exist because megalomaniacal TOs and the like get a hair up their asses and think that they can "fix" perceived balance issues in 40k, not to fix players. But I'm sure a genius like you already figured that one out. Common sense - try some. ~rat poison- please eat it.

house_cawdor- How about this? If everyone didn't exploit the codex for the most powerful items, and played stuf that they liked, maybe the game would be more fun for everyone. Power gamers are those that feel the need to win at all costs. However, this seems like a proper blood angels army of assault troops...like it should be....so whats the problem? ~exactly. As I said before, it seems fluffy enough to me. funny thing you can be fluffy and competitive.

Noxx- It does? ~yeah, you know because BA made the Lucifer pattern engine that this list takes advantage of and specialize in using assault marines with or without jump packs.

house_cawdor- actually, now im 50/50 on what I said, didnt realize they werent
jump infantry...but alas there are alot of different sm groups ~no back tracking, especially when you were right the first time. always go with your gut

Chumbalaya- u mad?

Maybe you should suck less. ~just keep trolling.

gilbert93dt- The idea is that if I go first against Guard"

If they go first all of your rhinos will blow up. ~really? in what world?

Brent- Good thing folks out there know how to reserve their stuff. ~burn

Herald of Nurgle- Unlike when Darkwynn went to last year's Ard Boyz. ~man, with all these great sarcastic one liners the competition is going to be stiff this week.

Chumbalaya- zing! ~hey, you trying to muscle me out of the business?

Tmeisis- I know this is meant for a highly competative tournament, but isn't it just the leafblower list (the one you said you'd retired) in red ceramite? ~yes. Except that it bears no resemblance to the Leafblower and is based around an assault capable platform rather than shooting. but beyond that, you're right on target

Zingbaby- Thanks BOLS for making the Blood Angels the NEXT totally hated codex. ~Seriously just shut the fuck up, nobody cares. Take your chickenlittleing with you and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Brent- You guys are giving Darkwynn too much credit and blame, all wrapped up together. ~Darkwynn is our god. All hail Darkwynn

Its a competitive event, so he builds a competitive army. Frankly, I'm not sure its the toughest build in the 'dex at the moment, ~hey stop sucking up to Dakwynn. oh wait but that's less important than the use Nick is putting the army to.

Bell takes knocks for writing fluffy-bunny armies and articles then takes a knock when Goat or Darkwynn do the opposite. ~I demand that everyone be pleased all the time. From now on BoLS must write terrible "fluffy" lists that are also competitive and are created by people with mathlexia or whatever it is

Lighten up.

darkwynn- you can never win Brent like I said :) you just roll with the punches. ~there is a world where you can win darkwynn- the world of Dick Move. Also maybe in the land of Dairy Queen, but I'm less sure of that.

Zingbaby- Seriously dude, isn't winning all you care about though? ~only if being a cockmaster is all you care about. Now here's what I don't get and where your argument loses all steam. If Darkwynn was so concerned with winning, why publish his list, allowing people to react and plan to beat it?

You can hardly be blamed for the leaf blower... who knew that every newb would copy a win-at-all-cost spam list, on likely the most popular 40k Blog on the internet... ~hey Zing- can your dick touch your asshole? Yes, then go fuck yourself.

But now you know for sure.

matthc- He built a list, I have seen far more efficient lists. ~oh no, more disparaging comments about the lists. I guess not everybody is a "protohuman" after all. His list did so well because he played it. Not because it manipulated some hidden behind the scenes rules magic. I have seen tons of people take spammed lists and lose. The majority of the time a good general with a decent list can beat a decent general with a good list. Darkwynn's list took his playing style and capitalized on it. I don't see why you think it is the be all end all of all lists. I've seen at least 15 online lists that are better than his I.G. list, and dozens more that are better than this list. (Not meaning to insult you Darkwynn, I just think it attests to your generalship) ~how dare you insult the almighty darkwynn. I don't see what your problem is, if this list starts a trend of B.A. copy lists, I'm going to be happy, because I know that I can beat this list handled by 75% of player with my eyes closed. Of course I run a dual seer council list. Now, that's a spam list. P.S. It wasn't Leafblower that killed my list. My list eats Leafblowers for breakfast. It was the mass introduction of anti-psychic powers into every codex of late.

Zingbaby- I tell you what, the number one reason I find Darkwin's list offensive ...is because it has turned a GREAT Blood Angel codex into a one-dimensional spammer factory... ~this just in- one dimmensional duality. Think about it because we know that every dumb newb on the net is going to copy this list like they did with the leaf blower. ~yes the number of people already shit talking this list clearly indicates that we'll all be copying it.

Thankfully I don't often play with these dumb newbs on the net - but the point is no less valid.

Chumbalaya- The way you cry about legal armies it seems like you only care about winning. ~oh no, not more irony to go over people's heads

Get better and you will win a game

Zingbaby- Now back to reality - barely a month after the infamous "leaf blower fiasco" we see at least 1 "leaf Blower" at EVERY club in the US. ~I leave my leaf blower in the garage, but take my mechanised guard that I've been playing since 4th edition (well as much as that shit sandwhich of a codex would let me) everywhere I go

BOLS is a very popular sight. ~and you are bad with homonyms

make no mistake, I never claimed that this BA list was the hardest around. ~well it sure seemed like that's what you were implying

Just that it was a flavorless doucher spam list, that is clearly built with winning as the ONLY goal. That said, it's certainly not unbeatable. But when the designers build a codex with sooo many awesome, new and characterful units and models - and you take a list like that? - LAME... because it's slightly more efficient? ~it's leaps and bounds more efficient than cramming one of every unit you like into a list with no care as to how the army works as a whole. That ain't fluff; you may as well just drop your pants and shit in the middle of your gaming table.

dethtron- I'd love to see one of your flavorful chutney ferret anti-spam lists. ~so I have to admit something. This whole time, I thought Zing was a Brit, until I re-read this for editing. So, I slipped in quite a bits of offensive slang every time I addressed him. Slightly less funny now, but I found out a great way to call somebody a cunt and a fag without getting language filtered. It would give me some great insight into how taking a disjointed list that somehow majickally qualifies as fluffy or full or character or moral fiber ~esoteric movie references continue. Spelling goes south. or whatever could possibly be an enjoyable experience to play with or against.

pi$$ing and moaning about how other players' "hard" lists are unimaginative must be a lot easier than learning to play better.

Chumbalaya- And the only leafblower stomps on all the scrubs and bad players, who whine about it incessantly until the list is "retired" rather than learn how to beat a mediocre mech guard army. ~way to construct a sentence there, buddy

dethtron- meh, leafblower ain't got nothin' on my rotorooter

Chumbalaya- Rotorooter can suck a bag of dicks, it's all about my Garden Shears

Make me internet famous

dethtron- HA! Garden Shears can suck my right nut 'til the left one gets jealous. Riding Mower is teh pwnage autowin ftw!

darkwynn- Think the next one will be named after you Dethron :) Be like Dethrons Uber Elbow or something silly. ~sweet now proof that I'm kind of a big deal

Zingbaby- lol I really believe you and Chumbalaya and Mathtc are the same guy... or strangely just part of the same myspace retard language, teen fan club. ~we're part of the super best friends forever forever club (SBFFF) or the BORG

...and again for the last time, for yet another retard that can't read - I'm not losing to those lists and that is the farthest thing from my beef... but I'm certain you have too much Pwonage$$ to understand what I'm saying here anyway. ~the pwnage does cloud our vision

dethtron- How dare you compare me to the spawn of inbred mountain folk that is Chumbalaya. ~lol, no disrespect, homo or incest

"...and again for the last time, for yet another retard that can't read - I'm not losing to those lists and that is the farthest thing from my beef"

so you just destroyed your whole argument? you don't like redundant lists because they are too powerful and uncreative. you want both players to have fun, which for you means participation trophies for everyone, lots of hugging, and a rousing rendition of kumbaya at the end. yet, you are still beating the u(insert umlaut here)ber competitive lists. this means that on some level, you are enjoying winning, exibiting competitive behavior, and creating lists yourself that are optimized to some degree. so, if I may to refer to a Wendy's ad campaign from my childhood- "where's the beef?" ~even I'm a little lost at this point. stupid rage vision

...and "myspace language?" I think I've been pretty articulate. I await your reply. TTYL ~LOL 4realz OMG WTFBBQ

Zingbaby- Competition is a very big part of this game/hobby. However, 'optimizing to some degree' is a completely different than building the 'leaf blower'. ~it proves you're not trying hard enough

But I'm just repeating myself now throughout this thread... and I'm too tired to bother...

The inherent weakness in 40k is that it is designed to be FUN, first and foremost. The only rule that American's fail to exploit is - THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE. ~I think this is where I started thinking he was a Brit. This is all crazy out of order, if you must know. This was actually one of the earlier conversations in the thread.

It's a game designed by Brits... look at all of the great stuff in the new BA codex; it wasn't intended to be used this way... ~so it was designed to be used this way because.... obviously you can but that's because they are not designing the game for Americans.

dethtron- I'm super glad that you know exactly how the game designers intended the codex to be used. You know since they obviously built it to not make use of very powerful builds or have units with 3 melta weapons or take 6 Predators or take almost all Dreads or blah blah blah

I seriously don't get the whole US v. UK argument and am frankly getting sick of it. ~Dethtron solves the international relations crisis. more at 11:00 My group (in the US) has a UK native player in it who is as concerned with competition as he is with having a fun game. Let's not even get started about how your entire argument is bollocks since many players feel a "fun" game is one that is as competitive as possible. This means bringing a tough list and your best technical ~err I meant tactical acumen to the table. Obviously that's not your bag, but players like you can coexist with the rest of the community. So seriously if the next time I see somebody post about how a handfull of American cowboys from Texas with a blog are ruining the 40k community because they don't have fun the same way you do, I think my head is going to explode.

Zingbaby- Eck yeah seriously dude. You could always spam... (see Sisters of Battle, one of the oldest codex around still); but now it's the 'trend'. ~because in some cases it works. Do you complain about BT or DA having to spam troops? If GW really started designing codex focused only on countering Spam-douchers we would have NOTHING. ~except the new codices have a lot of viable builds in them that don't recquire as much repetition.

Why is it only here that "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE" is a tossed aside joke, at best? ~because you're doing it wrong It's in the fricken rule book - it's called the _most_ _important_ _rule_.

When ever White Dwarf shows a batrep all you get in the forums are groans and complaints that the lists are not uber-efficient and the rules weren't followed to the R.A.W - T.

Have you seen the blog (on BOLS) regarding the ArdBoyz results? ...did you see how many Leafblowers were in there?

Further it is _absolutely ridiculous_ to say that you cannot be 'competitive' without having a total doucher-spam list that will not be any fun for your opponent. ~I never said that, but I said you have to cover your ass and have redundancy and duality built in. Absolutely ridiculous.

dethtron- Reading your post made me realize that you didn't understand what I said. I never once used the word "spam." Hell, I try not to even use it because it is one of the dumbest phrases in the entire wargaming vernacular, but since you brought it up, having redundant units is both fluffy (what would a real military do?) and makes good gaming sense. If you have only one unit A that can deal with unit B, what happens when unit A is destroyed.

Now here is the executive summary version of what I said in my previous post so that you can digest it and get the opportunity to respond to my actual thoughts on this subject.

1. You do not speak for the game designers. The codex appears to have been tailored to find a balance between "fluff" and "competitiveness," whether by intent or accident.
2. "Fluff" and "competitiveness" are often not mutually exclusive. This means the "fun" rule is different for everyone. ~so blow your weak argument out your ass, Zing Just because you like to whine about players wanting to win a competitive game doesn't mean that other people across the world don't have a lot of fun during competitive games. Are the 'ard boyz players having fun? Well, unless they are complete masochists, then yes they probably are. ~bad example, should have thought that through more
3. The US v. UK argument is asinine for the same reason as point 2- different people play the game different ways. Categorizing mentalities by country is narrow-minded. ~and kind of racist to boot, but this just gets even weirder knowing that Zingbaby isn't from the UK
4. You are being a complete berk by trying to impose your deffinition of "fun" on the universe and trying to dictate how everyone should enjoy an easily personalizable hobby

Zingbaby- I realize you didn't specifically use the word 'spam', however it is just a label for exactly the sort of thing you were describing. ~wrong as hell. I know it's asking a lot, but could you try and read/comprehend other people's posts before you reply?

You are just playing pretentious semantic games here... ~it's not semantics, you put words into my mouth. I want to put my fist into yours.

1) you are right that the codex "appears to have been tailored to find a balance between 'fluff' and 'competitiveness,'" as is the entire game of 40k. But you CAN "break" nearly every codex if you really want to. ~so I'm right, thanks The game clearly falters when taken to the extreme of 'power-gaming'. Do you honestly believe that the game designers created the BA codex, including all of those amazing new units and models, with THAT list in mind? ...seriously?! ...Ok dude.


From the DESIGNER'S NOTES of 40k 5th edition:

"...the game system needed to catch up with the hobbyists, so to speak. But to make this work we assume gamers will play in a friendly way. This game requires you to play with a gracious, cooperative spirit. You have to make the game work for you, your opponent and the story you're creating. It is a move away from the ultra-competitive style that has become more prevalent in 40K over the recent years."

Let's not forget (again) the MOST IMPORTANT RULE. ~wow, thanks for quoting this again. Thanks for getting the tone of the designer's notes wrong, again.

2) you said 'fun' and 'competitiveness' are not mutually exclusive - that is _exactly_ the point I was making. ~ when? all you've done is whine about how people making competitive lists aren't having fun the right way. Of course everyone's definition of fun is different - let's not be totally ridiculous - but I sincerely doubt that any of Darkmustwin's leaf blower opponents were having fun? ~so now in all of your omnipotence you are speaking for all gamers. I wish I had a fraction of your powers ...do you think he cared? ~I'll bet he did. Did you care darkwynn?

One of my store regulars played in the first round of Ard Boyz, didn't do great but described his game against the 'leaf blower'... he said the kid hadn't even realized he had won, he contributed so little to the game. ~your "friend" needs to think about his own tactics then. If he can get rolled by someone who isn't trying, how bad does he suck... He just rolled some dice and it was over - my friend asked him if he even had fun, and he shrugged and said, 'yeah I guess'. Yeah that was only one game but it spelled it out perfectly. Do you have fun when you beat up on someone mercilessly and they don't even get a chance to fight back, like a cripple or a young child? - well, yes if you are a jerk.

Further making a list with winning as _A_ goal (not the only) is fricken obvious and again is NOT mutually exclusive with 'fluff'.

3) Dude, I'm sorry to break this to you, but American's are known worldwide for being uber-competitive 'hammer throwers'. Certainly not just in 40k but including. Have you not watched any of the world cup? ~no, sports are lame, football doubly so...sorry guys. It's people like you who are perpetuating this myth. Quit being a racist ass please.

4) I'm not the one imposing anything here. I'm certainly not responsible for spreading the popularity of unsportsmanlike uber spam 'leaf blower' win-at-all-cost lists - influencing games way beyond my local meta.

But you are just trying to disagree if you are really gonna tell me that some folks idea of fun (masochists aside) is getting 'leaf blown'. That is total crap. ~if the game was hard fought and they are mature enough to learn something in defeat, then yes I bet they had fun. I just lost to Demons with my mech guard list a few nights ago and learned about some holes in my list. Also, I had a blast playing the game.

darkwynn- Dethron, I thought I was supposed to like you? :P ~did you mean you're not supposed to like me? I couldn't have said any of those points finer and I think your correct on all of them.

Ben- 40% Guard and 30% Blood Angels with 10% Space Wolves? Wow. So, it's a tournament for every @sshole who plays 40k solely to win? The kind that every casual player, every fun player, and all those fluffy players hate, because they only care about winning? Oh, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have expected anything More from BoLS, should I? Sure, tournaments are fun, I guess. I'd just rather have fun while playing 40k. ~wow, find a stance and stick with it. Tournaments are fun. Tournaments aren't fun. I want to have fun. I like fun. Fun is fun. How dumb do you sound? I'd rather game against people who's company I enjoy. ~and this has what to do with tournaments. You know that you won't play against cool people. Hard Boyz is probably an overall Bad thing for the hobby. ~no, narrow minded people on either side of the imaginary electric fence are bad for the hobby. You guys are making me want to wiz on the fence.

The last thing 40k needs is more power-gaming. This is what leads to people deciding that Codexes that Didn't come out two days ago are 'outdated' and 'underpowered' and whatnot. ~the sky, she is falling. look out

Herald of Nurgle- Don't forget the 3% Space Marines, 4% Mech Eldar, 5% Tau, 2% Dark Eldar, and 6% Black Templars.

It's sad, but people don't need codexes to be douches. They don't need some tournament saying that they can. It's just that it is being used as an excuse by certain people. ~you've hit the nail on the fucking head there, pal

hashshashin- its funny how much you get your hate on to a site you frequent so often...

Normally when I don't like a product or service I stop using it, like White Dwarf it sucks but I don't complain I just don't buy it.

If you don't apprieciate BoLs or what the bloggers here write why do you insist on sippin' Hateraide by the gallon? ~I think the problem is that there has been a slight consistency issue. and honestly, the biggest problem with the site isn't the authors (with a few exceptions), it's the fucking commentors. You guys are idiots

Don't get me wrong often I enjoy your sarcasm, etc but you seem to have a hate-hard-on ~I like that, I will need to steal it towards Darkwyn specifically so why post comments to his articles when they aren't actually insightful, funny, accurate, or educational but are just hateful?

mustakrakish- Darkwyn pee'd in his cheerios. ~I heard darkwynn killed his parents and that's why he's Batman now

Herald of Nurgle- Tell you what, I don't hate BoLS. I absolutely love their hobby articles, respect the thoughts behind each list, and most writers are awesome.

The people I don't think are awesome are those who seem to have been brought in for no reason whatsoever, or are honestly just getting free adspace because they're dating the Editor (which do you think Darkwynn falls into :P). Goatboy is awesome, Bigred is awesome, ~Bigred was mean to me one time. screw that guy. Plus isn't he the guy responsibe for the warhammer tacticas that didn't abide by the rules? Aventine is awesome, Mkerr (was) awesome. Fritz is a badass Eldar player who still diversifies.

Darkwynn I don't respect because he seems to have just been brought in because he won a single tournament and is like Rommel... he's a magnificent bast*rd (check up on Tv Tropes for more details). The Girl I don't respect because though she appears to be representing the beginner hobbyist I just can't shake the feeling that she is there to just give Google Ads to BoLS and that is BS. Mkerr has become controversial recently. ~yeah, a little bit I don't see the guy from Blood of Kittens enough to make an opinion (but sometimes he's awesome :P).

I don't believe in stopping the use of a service when I dislike 40% of the content. I believe more in trying to point out how BS that service can be. (and I found out that some people were actually visiting my blog and my homebrew content which has disappeared from BoLS so it's also because I want a reason to be a hypocrite :P) ~well put, but isn't this supposed to be about Blood Angels and 'ard boyz. What the fuck happened? How did I get here? Where are my pants?

Also... when life gives you Malice you might as well make Haterade. I bet you want to know what the special ingredient is... ~it better not be the pee cheerios

Brent- ...what?

Ben: The last thing 40K needs is more power-gaming? Where's the rest of the power-gaming? For years RTT's were dictated composition and vote-blocking, painting scores and sportsmanship. The Indies now are famous for odd missions that irritate half the 'net. ~I think we need less TOs power tripping if anything

Let me be clear - I don't care! I don't mind if an event has restrictions or composition, I'll tailor my game in that direction. But this is Hard Boyz, literally a tournament for power-gaming. If you don't like it, don't participate, but let's not pretend its the standard.

Herald: People don't need codexes to be douches? I'm not even sure what that means.

An article is posted and people comment. There are disagreements and a bit of drama - fine - but you throw down a blanket statement about peoples' attitudes? What's your point? ~that fighting is hillarious

Are you saying if someone wants to build a tough list and play other tough lists, if that's what they enjoy, that it somehow ruins your gaming experience? ~yeah, so I'm not the only person that's bugged by that That seems to be what a lot of folks in this thread are saying.

There is room in this hobby for fun on a Saturday afternoon with your mates and clawing a win in a hard-fought tournament... and everything in between.

Ah well - enough of this. I've either made my points or not, but I'm done. You never know when Dethtron is going to come along and steal the whole thing for one of his Friday Night Fights, ~lol, you guys had me at 'oh look another BoLS spam list' so I'd better quit while I'm ahead. ~if you quit, the not Brents win and the baby Jesus cries.

Heald of Nurgle- I don't wanna be snowmobiled either, but regardless. ~haha, thankfully you're one of the few people not talking out of their ass today. Looks like you get a free pass this week...

Chumbalaya- @Ben: u mad?

mustakrakish- I cannot like this comment hard enough.

dethtron- If I liked it any harder it might get pregnant ~this is approximately where I gave up on life and learned to embrace the horror. If you read all the comments you'll also get some quips I cut out from here about Amy Winehouse and all kinds of other shit that made no sense

BuFFo- Darkwynn,

Very nice list. And I will say, that for my eyes, it looks like a fluffy list as well. ~stop sucking up

Troop heavy lists..... I love them.

Heaven forbid people remember how Elite lists ran the game into the ground during 3rd and 4th editions.... ~different strokes for different strokes and all that

darkwynn- I know right people tend to forget things like Lucifer engines are a thing Blood Angels came up with. :) Besides if I wanted to win at all cost wouldn't I be playing Guard again? ~yes, but you'd need to bring the hedge trimmer this time

Think the only way to break the guard is to throw a lot of heavy infantry up close and personal and weather the storm. It sucks but right now till GW changes the game around and eliminates mystics IG are going to be the top dog for awhile. They are just too point efficient compared to other armies.

dethtron- If you made it to this far into the comments section it's time to re-think the decisions you made that led your life in this direction. ~and this seems like as bad a place as any to stop. hope you had fun. if not, what the fuck's wrong with you?


Herald of Nurgle said...

Free pass? Fuck that.

Chumbalaya said...

I hadn't posted on BoLS in a while, so I figured I'd make my return as triumphantly assholish as possible.

Dicks, suck them.

The CPT said...

Well played on the military aspect of redundant units.

I heard that Al Qaeda has been bitching because a standard Light Infantry Mounted Platoon rolls out with 5x Uparmored HMMWVs* w/ mounted .50 cals. The nerve!!!

*Actual acronym, or "Humvee" to a civilian

Ishamael said...

Is it over? Am I done? Whew! That hurt, and I had no idea where the fuck I was at the end of that tirade. Y'know, I'm garnering a desire to get featured on FNIF now, just to see what happens.

Tomorrow I'll hopefully show that you don't fuck with the Greater Wood.

The_King_Elessar said...

Shit one - I got left out, I would have thoroughly enjoyed it. :(

Pretty sure I did comment to, lol. Ah well.

The_King_Elessar said...

Oh, and to be fair - Reecius didn't spout any BS in that quote - in fact, I very much agreed. It's confusing. Sexually.

Brent said...

Man, I've been waiting all day to see this! I knew this was gonna be the FNF - it was too good to pass up.

I'll admit, I skipped ahead to all my posts to see what Dethtron had to say... now I've got to start at the beginning. It looks like Chumby got involved after I bowed out.

This has literally made my otherwise crummy day.

Thanks Dethtron.


Von said...

I seriously don't get the whole US v. UK argument and am frankly getting sick of it... My group (in the US) has a UK native player in it who is as concerned with competition as he is with having a fun game. Let's not even get started about how your entire argument is bollocks since many players feel a "fun" game is one that is as competitive as possible. This means bringing a tough list and your best [tactical] acumen to the table. Obviously that's not your bag, but players like you can coexist with the rest of the community.


I confess, my spleen has sprung, my hackles have risen and my dander has been well and truly gotten up by this recent (well, it's probably older but I've been noticing it recently) trend toward describing frivolous Rule Of Cool game design as 'British', and this strange assertion that British gamers don't want solid, functional game systems that you can actually run a tournament for without feeling obliged to do the developer's job for them.

Dethtron said...

TKE: I'm pretty sure you didn't comment on it. otherwise you'd probably be on here.

I'm also confused/conflicted about/by the reecius situation. Maybe even a little turned on...

Smurfy said...

Am glad I didn't get in on this trollin' douches bitchlist.

I face lists people see on BoLS all the time, and have a fine and even win/loss ratio regardless.

Calm the fuck down, and someone would help your whiny ass.

'Nuff said?

Heretic said...

This was a good fight for all parties, barring Zing. Thanks for posting it Dethtron. I may be making this a regular read.

On a side note, the FNIF you featured from Heresy is still going on.

Messanger of Death said...

I'm glad I wasn't the only person who found themselves warming up to that Footdar guy.

Also, this FNF didn't last as long as I was hoping... I want LONGER.


N.B. is it ironic that the Word Verification thingy I got was 'boyinuk'

Doomliger said...

lol, this was made a excellent read :P

FOOTDAR ftw! and king_elessar: bladestorm FTW

Gx1080 said...

Hey, nice blog around here.

"your momma so fat, when she wears high heels she strikes oil. Also your face is ugly and you are adopted"

Earned my vote in here Chumb.

Although the sarcastic one-liners were close.

Darkwynn said...

Hilarious Dethron. Grade A stuff :)

Momba said...

Strange enough... It becomes a better read with an aggressive, open troll trying to pick a fight in the discussion. Who would have thought it...
You really should do that more often.

..and while we are at it: Yo momma so ugly, when she walks into McDonalds the Happy Meals start crying!

Phalanx said...

For great justice! The Not Brent's will rise again!

This was pretty entertaining.

Kirby said...

Glad you didn't need me for FNIF :P.

PsychoSquire said...

So I like beating up on old people and children, why does he have to call me a jerk? Sheeesh.

This is why fluff bunnies are fail. I have no issues with playing a totally jerk off list in a friendly game in someones basement, but if you are at a gaming club you should expect to find some tough opponents.

If this d-bag wants to play easier lists he should probably stick to inviting his buddies over for cake and wh40k.

Or maybe he should just play with himself :D It would obviously be sex with someone he loves.

Brent said...


The Not Brent's will rise again?


You just don't know how hurtful certain words are...

Can I have a shoulder to cry on please?

Kirby said...

Don't get my shirt wet Brent.

DFM said...

wtf, we didn't have cake in the nerdcave.

Why didn't we have cake in the nerdcave?

Phalanx said...

Brent: Would cake help ease your sorrow? Everyone loves cake (though pie is better... Mmmm... Delicious 3.14...)

The_King_Elessar said...


Fucking Bladestorm!