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Friday, June 4, 2010

Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 14

Well this might be a long one today. Just warning you ahead of time.

This week Smurfy went over to 40k online to pee in the kiddie pool.
More specifically he got in a bit of a heated debate with Wyddr over the viability of movement blocking. Then Tom Kirby from 3++ is the New Black got involved and posted his own snowmobiling over on his blog. Both he and Smurfy then e-mailed me a heads up on the situation. I could probably just take and copy/paste Kirby's post here and that would make this a lot easier on me, but then we'd only get Kirby V. Wyddr and there's a lot more to this fight then that. Hell, Kirby didn't even start it. So in the interest of opening things up a bit, I'll edit a dialogue of my own and snowmobile the shit out of it. That should give some unbiased neutrality to the situation ::laughs::. No seriously, Stelek once said that I kept the FNIF unbiased. I now doubt that he has ever read this blog :) well thanks for linking to me at least. Time to keep up the thin veil of neutrality......

As always none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement. The post length and order may be changed to make for a more logical reading experience and blow the doors off of any hopes of me displaying any journalistic integrity. With the amount of quoting and re-quoting that went on in the original thread, the task of editing what follows may very well have sapped my will to ever blog again. My own snowmobiling will be in red. Kirby's posts will be in pink, because that's what he does. Good luck not burning the shit out of your retinas trying to read this.

Wyddr- Okay, so this is a discussion I'm taking from the whole 'Assault Terminators' thread. Smurfy and I are having a bit of a disagreement ~understatement of the year! about the effectiveness of this tactic, so I figure we won't threadjack and let others chime in.

The Tactic
Movement Blocking is when you move a series of vehicle units in such a way that you block the exits on a Transport of some kind (in this case a Land Raider) and block its capacity to move forwards/disembark its cargo, thereby keeping it from making forward progress in a turn. ~well wrong out of the gate. this is really more of an "and/or" situation, not to mention that blocking can also be used to break up LOS (not in this case with skimmers, but... aww fuck it you get the idea)

My Problem With It
I have several issues, actually. I will enumerate them.

1: Feasability ~wow he really is enumerating. Guess I jumped to conclusions when I thought he was about to use big words to sound smart a second ago, but fail to use them correctly.
Being able to execute this tactic requires a number of things to fall into place for your opponent. Firstly, they need 2-3 vehicles to spare that they don't mind getting *really* close to you. Secondly, they need those 2-3 units to be situated in such an area where they actually have the movement to *get* to where they need to be. Thirdly, they need you to not realize this as a possiblity and move in such a way that you make yourself susecptible to such a move. Granted, all these things *can* happen, but they aren't terribly likely if you know what you're doing. ~ummm so cheap skimmers that can move across half the table in one move aren't likely to be able to do this? I think I'm done with you already, sir

In the case of Land Raiders, for instance, you can simply twist them in such a way as to make it extraordinary difficult, if not impossible, for them to be bracketed by the same three units. Likewise you can flank them with other vehicles, ~if you're flanking your own vehicles that compounds the blocking issue and forces you to move backwards or not at all you can shoot one or two of the units in question prior to the move, and so on.

Armies like the Eldar or Dark Eldar have the best chances of pulling this tactic off against marines for the simple fact that they are so fast. Star Engines, in particular ~being a big fat waste of points on a sacrificial unit, do you read your shit before you post it or are you really hat thick?, make this tactic more feasible.

2: Durability
As mentioned above, the units used by your opponent to block your movement need to be expendable. The reason for this is that it is very likely that a vehicle so very close to a Space Marine army is going to die, no matter how fast it happened to move. Nevermind that it is also in close proximity to all the short-range firepower of the army, as well--a heap of melta guns, multimeltas, etc., etc.. ~do I really need to be called an asshole troll again for raising the issue of target prioriy here?

Some armies (Orks and Tau, for instance) can spare the stuff needed to pull this off. They, however, are also the ones least likely to be *able* to pull it off. Conversely, Dark Eldar and Eldar armies *can* do this, but they rarely have the resources available to spare. The Eldar, in particular, should ~do this shit all the time! be wary of performing this little trick unless they *absolutely have to*.

In his example, Smurfy suggested using a trio of Vypers for this purpose. Presuming they actually do this, it is reasonable to assume that 2/3 Vypers can be killed, if not all 3, by the Raider and its contents alone. This is also assuming that the Land Raider *is* alone; mine seldom is, nor are those of many of you, I'm sure. It is likely, indeed, that I have a few other things in the area that can kill the Vypers if I really have to. ~well I'm super fucking glad that you seem to be shooting in the movement phase, so destroying the blockers before they hem you in is possible...asshat Now, your Eldar opponent may chuckle and say 'you just killed some worthless Vypers!' The answer to this is 'yes, I just killed a trio of nasty, long-range shooting units you flew into my face that I otherwise might have ignored--congratulations'. ~to which I'll reply: "and while you were shooting at that unit that you would have otherwise ignored the rest of my footdar army wasn't being shot at. good move dickhead"

As someone who has played a *lot* of games against the Eldar (and very seldom lost), the idea of movement blocking is of minor concern. ~well bully for you and your having inept opponents As mentioned in the other thread, I spend most of my time trying to engage the Eldar. When they engage *me*, things become easier, not harder. The Land Raider full of Terminators doesn't *need* to go anywhere if targets are coming to it. All it remains for the Space Marine player to do is to determine how they can destroy the Vypers (or what have you) without unduly exposing themselves to countering fire. This isn't too difficult, actually, particularly not if you Land Raider is accompanied with other units, as it should be against the kind of highly mobile forces that would try to perform this tactic.

The Question

So, what is everyone's thoughts on this whole 'movement blocking' thing. Has it been a problem for you guys? How have you dealt with it? ~have you ever actually encountered it?

moc065- 1: Feasability

•I run a lot of Jetbike/Bike style lists, and I actually find Tank Blocking very easy to do... It called the "Iron Coffin" and it works well with certain armies.... Serieoulsy, Turbo in a Squad of Bikers, Jetbikers, Necron Destroyers, Scarabs, etc... ring around the Vehicle... I know that some will say.. run them over with the Landraider... but you encircle it to prevent the infantry form exiting, not necessarily to stop it from moving... as I also tend to fire at the Raider after I encircle it; thus a "Wrecked" result can bag al lof those juicy infantry figures that were in the Landraider.
•Now if you do this Iron Coffin tactic with things like a Vper Squad or 2, or a Landspeeder Squad or 2,... the guy can't even Tanks Shock his way out of it in many situations... and if you use things like Eldar or Tau Skimmer Tanks, then good luck getting through those....
•If you use something sick like a JB Council, then not only is it viable; but its effective. Their Spear/Witchblade will often slice up a Landraider like a hot knife through butter, and if they don't get it in their turn, then they certainly might if teh raider tries to Tank Shock them out of the way (DoG) ~and you're missing the point that this isn't actually what is being discussed here and your tactic is more to destroy the transport and their contents in one shot. also that wored way better in 4th edition, before melta saturation caused so many "explodes" results.

Thus I do feel the tactic is Viable and I have employed it often enough to say that my experience has it as an Option to watch for; but not really something to try to plan out for each game, as its still kind-of wishy-washy for actually destroying the Landraider...~again, not the point. you're blocking it and hampering its progress, not trying to kill it.

2: Durability

I disagree that the units need to be expendable... but let me explain... The units need to have some chance of doing something or preventing something while reducing the risk to themselves.

For instance... and Unit of Eldar Jetbiekrs is pretty soft if assaulted by Terminators (Dead meat actually).. so if the do an Iron Coffin Manouvre to prevent their certain death, then its all good for them... Since they often have a Warlock assigned to their unit, they can even threaten the Landraider to some extent... and even Destroy the unit inside if they happen to get a lucky "Wrecked" result.

Try to think it through; but I could give you some more examples using various units that could and should block landraiders from time to time.

Yes the Landraider can try to tank shock its way out still; but with an embolden Warlock that gets a guarenteed "Las" hit on the raider, would everyone take that risk ?

Anyway... Iron Coffin is a viable tactic when the risk outways the consequences of doing nothing....


Wyddr- Hey, moc!

Well, the Iron Coffin is a bit different than the tactic described above. The 'Movement Blocking' idea is meant to nullify a transport as a useful means for moving your troops to where they need to be. The Iron Coffin, as you point out, doesn't necessarily prevent that. The tank can still move, simply tank-shocking the guys out of the way. Granted, there is the Death or Glory to worry about, but given the effectiveness of non-AP1 antitank attacks, the risks are greater on the part of the Warlock than the tank *unless* there's a fusion blaster somewhere about. If you're willing to risk your Warlock against my Land Raider, I'll take them odds. ~yeah, you got something right. well played

On the whole, a full-jetbike army can do a good job of pissing off Rhinos with the Iron Coffin. Now, as for the Iron Coffin Vs Land Raiders, there are a couple things to keep in mind:

1) As noted, Death or Glory attacks have poor odds of actually stopping a Land Raider. Chances are the guy who tries it is tread lube. ~well thanks for that mental picture

2) Moving a Land Raider doen't prevent the occupants from assaulting.

3) If you are shooting at a Land Raider surrounded by Jetbikes, one of two things have happened. Firstly,you are shooting with another unit and the jetbikes are sufficiently large to give the LR a cover save. ~wait, what? Thank you. Secondly, if you are able to shoot with the Jetbikes themselves, that indicates that they *didn't* turboboost, which means the likelihood of you actually being *able* to encircle a Land Raider is rather slim. ~yeah, because then they only move a foot. oh what that's faster than most things in the game can move and still be effective? shit Any big, juicy jetbike unit under 18" from a Land Raider is probably going to have a pack of assault terminators in their face before they are going to assault anything.

4) Again, the presumption of an unsupported Land Raider seems present here. The risk to your units (excepting the Jetbike Council, of course, which is essentially indestructible) is extreme.

So, yeah, the Iron Coffin is much more feasible than an actual movement blockage. ~how is throwing away an obviously useful unit like above a better idea than using a shit unit to block something? Whether it is worth it or not is still pretty questionable, in my mind. Use it on Rhinos by all means, but I'd not try it against an LR.

NewHeretic- I'm thinking that this may be a tactic to keep in mind for rare occasions when it presents itself as a possibility. For example, in my newest 'Ard Boyz list, I'm running two Land Speeder Storms with close combat Scouts in them. ~bwwaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Deploying them on the table would give me a very good opportunity to Movement Block something like a Land Raider. Sure, I will likely lose the Storm(s), but if it costs me a Storm or two to force a Land Raider full of Assault Terminators to sit still on its first Turn against my gunline list, it is likely a sacrifice worth making.

Of course, that presumes that the LR is not able to conveniently just go around the Storm(s) or that it doesn't just destroy it by Ramming ~haha, have you ever tried ramming a fast skimmer? You have about the same odds of destroying it as being struck by lightning (Strength 5 hit against AV 10 means 1/6 chance of a Penetrating hit with 3/6 chance of destroying the Storm - assuming I had to move over six inches after the 24" Scout Move - equals 1/12 chance to destroy, plus 1/6 chance of a Glancing hit with a 1/4 chance of destroying the Storm equals an additional 1/24 chance of destroying the Storm, which results in a total of 1 chance in 8 of destroying the Storm via Ramming with a Land Raider). ~forgot the turbo boost save. you are not a mathlete this week Sounds like good odds to me. So, the Storm(s) will likely be destroyed by supporting units in the Shooting Phase, but they will already have prevented the Land Raider from moving in the Movement Phase that Turn.

It could come in handy in a rare match.

P.S. Wait! I forgot, my Storms are Skimmers. That means they have the equivalent of a 3+ Cover Save against Ramming! That means the LR really only has 1 chance in 24 of wrecking my Storm(s). And, even better, if the Skimmer Save is made, the LR can't keep moving past it - it has to stop in its tracks, but still can't shoot that Turn. NH ~well, redeemed yourself a little, but you still don't get the trophy...

Smurfy- Yup Heretic got it at last with the last point.

If I could use VASSAL to illustrate tactics here? Or is it completely banned?

Bah, I'll try describing again -

First of all, if you're covering your Land Raider with other vehicles in front of it, You're blocking it's movement already and keeping it back, so I have no use of the tactic. I stay back, pop the lighter armour with Eldar infamous Strength 6 Spam and massed Bright Lances, and wait to see a opening to do this ~quick everyone throw your tiny bodies in front of the massive land raider, we must protect its sensitive armor plates

Oh and keep in mind, the Vypers I sacrifice are short ranged usually, as I use Dual Shuriken Cannon Vypers. The moment you get out of your Land Raider is the moment they achieved their goal.

Now into the meat ~you said meat -

Wyddr- Smurfy, you continue to make assumptions of how your opponent will behave. ~and you continue to make an ass out of yourself with your bad tactics These assumptions have your opponent behaving less intelligently than, frankly, should be expected.

Now, I don't want to get into a whole discussion of "If you do that then I'll do this", because those discussions go nowhere. ~prediction, you will do this and it won't go anywhere What I will do is point out the assumptions you are making and show you how they aren't necessarily true:

Smurfy- First of all, if you're covering your Land Raider with other vehicles in front of it, You're blocking it's movement already and keeping it back, so I have no use of the tactic. I stay back, pop the lighter armour with Eldar infamous Strength 6 Spam and massed Bright Lances, andwait to see a opening to do this ~quick everyone throw your tiny bodies in front of the massive land raider, we must protect its sensitive working and light armor
So, assumptions, you're assuming the best thing for a Mech Eldar player to do is stay back when...Sometimes... it's best to just rush up into the opponent's grill (face/deployment zone.) with Flat Out Moves and either next turn mass tank shock them to oblivion or hop over the opposing Mech wall and get to their more juicy rear armour. I believe my assumptions, other than the terrain one, are good. ~ummm yeah, why wouldn't you spend a lot of the game moving with your eldar fast vehicles. Eldar are not Tau, you don't need to sit on your ass all game.

Wyddr- Here you are assuming that (1) a vehicle is in front of the Land Raider, which there needn't be, ~and you are failing to realize that having vehicles on your flank still pens you in if you get move blocked (2) the presence of such a vehicle blocks movement, which it does not unless the vehicle in front of it is immobilized somehow, which is hardly guaranteed, and ~yes if you move your vehicles in the proper order this is correct. Too bad you're still fucking retarded if you are surrounding your LRs like this. This just makes the traffic jam that much worse when you start getting blocked or having shit immobilized (3) that 'massed' bright lances and S6 Spam can actually be effective, which it frequently isn't, especially if there's cover about.

Smurfy- So you've got your standard terrain setup and most of the time, more often than not, the Land Raider has to be deployed between two of the bigger pieces of terrain. Usually these are A) Ruins B) Hills and C) Buildings ~I don't think there's a standard terrain setup other than the 25% rule

Wyddr- This is a gigantic assumption and not necessarily true. Terrain can vary wildly, depending on where you are playing, how it is laid out, and what the deployment zone is.

Smurfy- Sorry, I guess so, but 25% terrain and such, the Land Raider usually has a hard time getting a foothold on the battlefield, true? ~sort of?

A Skimmer (Not a bunch of Jetbikes as Moc was saying, purely because Tank Shock goes right through them with no problems aside from a Witchblade, and trust me that's hardly a problem for your Land Raider from my experience it just tickles it.~tickle fight) comes swoops down in the gap right in front of your Land Raider's ramp, it's going Flat Out to get there, there's no reason it shouldn't be able to get there as...obviously...yo u want your Land Raider in a aggressive position ~like reverse cowgirl? no I guess the jackhammer would be seen as more aggressive hoping to gain the most ground before some Fire Dragons or a few lucky Lances Immobilize or kill it (I usually settle for the Immobilize unless someone brings in some form of vehicle repair.) ~raise your hand if you have ever seen a techmarine on the table

Wyddr- Here you are assuming your opponent will deploy on the deployment line. Not only is this not necessarily true, it also isn't particularly effective when playing mech eldar. Better to hang back and wait to see where they're going before committing yourself. ~plus all that extra time to shoot at you that you're giving them will totally even the playing field for their outdated dex You are also assuming that the Land Raider is directly across from your Vypers and that you have the first turn--also big assumptions.~hmmm unless he chooses to go 2nd You are *also* assuming this isn't a Dawn of War game, or a Spearhead game, or some other kind of funky deployment.

As for the bright lances, it takes (on average) 9 twin-linked brightlance shots to kill a raider in the open. If we are playing with as much terrain as you assume, it is likewise reasonable to assume the Raider has cover, making the odds 1-in-18. ~I'm not even going to check this, but it sounds really fucking off. Plus why the hell is this guy making Smurfy look like a jerk for using the recommended amount of terrain per the rule book? These are bad odds, and relying on them to stop armor is...suspect. Fire Dragons are trouble, granted, but they are tough to get where you need them.

Smurfy- If I'm deploying 2nd as Eldar, as I usually do, this is mostly true. Again, if you are holding back and not on the Deployment line or close to it with anything in your army, I have no use for this tactic. You hold back vs. Eldar you are losing, as you yourself said, we Eldar could just stay back and pepper you. I as a Eldar player know this, so pressure you moreso so I can try to end the game faster.

25% terrain, and Bright Lances have a better chance than everything but Fire Dragons or StormG's with Fusion Guns. Dare to suggest something else? Dare to imagine I'm shooting the Rhinos and making them immobilized/wrecks while they surround the Land Raider with "your" tactics" so now YOUR units are blocking it's movement. Great one there. ~Zing!

Now it's your turn, and your Land Raider has a lil fly right in front of it.

Do you -

A) Go through terrain and risk on a 1 you immobilize yourself. (And slowing you down.)
B) Go in reverse and try to go around it? (Still slowing you down.)
C) Try to ram it with it's 3+ Cover from ramming AND a Str 5 hit as I said before needs a 6 and a 5+ to kill the Vyper out of the way?
D) Get the termies out before the Fire Dragons have come over to deal with your Land Raider so you can try to swat a fly? ~what are you talking about using the most expensive troops in the game to kill one of the cheapest non-transport vehicles around is a great idea (So you're getting out, hoping to hit this Vyper on 6's in CC. Let's remind all of us that.)
E) Suck it up, shoot the Vyper.
F) Shoot the hostage

The answer that's best most often is E ~F. As your whole army moves up still but your death squad is delayed, annoying. Your shooting you hope to down the Vyper (And really you should unless I got really lucky with 4+ Saves.) I glee cuz it's EXPENDABLE (Yes, actually that's the mark of a good general, your whole army is expendable if you need it to be. ) ~how cold, callused and calculating. -ooh awesome alliteration assface and it wouldn't do that much work on it's own hoping to shoot its Scatter Laser and be down'd anyway, or block 500 points of the enemy's force from getting into the action.

So more than likely it'd die and become terrain or crater.

Wyddr- Here you assume that somebody can't choose both A *and* E and, indeed, that people are shy about driving through difficult terrain (which, by the way, doesn't slow the Raider down by much in this scenario, given the thin profile of the Vyper). ~yes is sure as fuck does There is only a 1-in-6 shot of being immobilized and, while it might happen every once in a while, it isn't too much of a deterrent.

Smurfy- Regardless I achieved my goal? I kept it from going where it wanted to go...Entire point of the tactic achieved.

My turn, since I have 2 more single Vypers hiding around my skimmer wall. I just throw another one on top of where the other Vyper was and block you again.

So far 1/3 of the game that Land Raider hasn't moved, do we see the merits now? ~for the record I saw it before

Situational? ~well in that you have to create the situation. which is obviously totally hard when you have the notoriously difficult to manouver Eldar Not when you face against a guy who relies on their Land Raider and contents to carry the game. Which is often if that's your belief the only way Assault Termies should be played.

Wyddr- You are again assuming your opponent (1) didn't drive through dangerous terrain anyway and, thereby, has made forward progress, likely clearing the terrain field, anyway, (2) nothing happened to those other two Vypers during your opponent's turn. ~well great if you shot the other vypers I can't do this anymore. too bad the rest of my army took that much less fire and can continue shooting the shit out of you. If it's a kill point game, for instance, they would be pretty easy points and would likely catch some fire, and (3) that somebody fielding Assault Terminators in a Land Raider rely on them to carry the game. This is, of course, a grand assumption. ~so grand that it's most likely the case?

Smurfy- 500 points not helping in the game at all...Yeah...grand assumption by me...I just nullified 1/4 your army...keep telling me that ~I can see the steam pouring out of your ears at this point Smurfy

Wyddr- I field Assault Termies all the time, but you know what *usually* wins the game? My tactical squads taking objectives, is who. Hell, if your opponent can get you to expend 3 Vypers, a troop of Fire Dragons (and the Falcon needed to get them there) as well as who knows how many bright lance shots, it seems to me like the Termies are doing their job just fine without killing a thing or so much as moving an inch.

So, yes, this tactic is extremely situational and dependent upon your opponent not noticing it, ~it doesn't matter if your opponent notices it or not, there's not much you can do to prevent it since your LR can't move 2 feet. the deployment to be just right, the dice to be just so, and so on. As a Tau player, I know *all about* movement blocking--~you've clearly demonstrated that fact. lol it is the Tau's bread and butter, and the only way they can survive these days. I know it's limitations backwards and forwards, and I really think you are overselling it ~and I think you need to go in for sales training. yeah take that.

~Sun Captain Radiant~- From my perspective, this tactic relies on the SM player depending on his terminators to make it into CC with something in particular, which may not always be the case. The way I run my raider has the terminators inside going only for targets of opportunity and otherwise fighting like a gunship. Like some others have said, getting the eldar close to me is 3/4 of the battle, the rest being ~the part where they use their speed to get away from you again the actual fight. When I see things like Vypers being sacrificed to limit something I don't really need, ~if you didn't need it why take it? oh yeah, your head just exploded from my logic bomb. suck it. I try not to look a gift horse in the mouth, as I see Vypers as a very big threat to me in objectives games and easy points in kill point games, and having one at point blank range is a blessing indeed.

This tactic will definitely buy a little bit of time vs CC builds, but may prove to be a liability vs Hybrid and Shooting builds ~wait you're putting shootinators in a LR? Good one

Smurfy- Take the shooty termies inside a LR?

I see it done and it gets crushed most of the time. 5+ Invul = bad these days.

If your terminators only target "targets of opportunity" you aren't using them to the best of their ability - They're a in-your-face-you-gotta-deal-with-me kind of unit.

Like how Heretic is using his Termies now, I suggested that whole Termie phalanx as with their 2+ Armour saves and giving all the foot troops behind them 4+ Cover Saves as well as a huge friggin Power Fist line to go through before you hit the core of his army, what happens then, if you have 2+ Armour Save 3+ Invul Saves ones doing the same thing? ~haha, I've seen that army list somewhere before. still not a fan.

Against Plasma and true general termie killing units the assault terminators live longer.

Against bolters the same.

Anyways the tactic IS useful outside cc units.

Middle of the game, I have 3 Wave Serpents and a lot of dismounted stuff. Wave Serpents zoom over to make a pocket wall around some of the enemy's forces, the infantry portion bands together in hopes of taking a isolated portion of the list out.

Here the skimmers are helping cut the opponent's forces into manageable chunks while blocking movement.

In objectives, how many people dread the Eldar hop on the Objective and last-minute contest/hold tactics?~anyone who has played against them should

That's movement blocking, you can't move within 3" of a objective if there's 3 skimmers parked all over it.

Again you lot get back to Kill Points - If you shoot my Vyper for a easy kill point over the more obvious threat of Fire Dragons, more power to me. I love you. Only last turn this thought process works, and since you are never sure about the game end till a Turn 7, I would always shoot the Fire Dragons first if I could be shot back. ~having little to interject at this point I will tangetially point out that I can now divide my life into 2 disparate portions: the time before I knew that Smurf porn existed and the time after I discovered Smurf porn

Wyddr- I will decline to specifically reply to your assertions, Smurfy. Clearly we have different experiences in this matter. I still think this tactic is unwise except in extreme circumstances and I do not think anything you have said substantially disproves this claim. My points stand.~in a big steaming pile of shit

As for whether or not an LR has room to maneuver: How many points are you guys talking, here? I pretty much never play a game larger than 1750 points, and I play on boards with plenty of terrain, and I pretty much *never* have difficulty maneuvering. Yes, once in a while my LR gets hung up on some little rock, but not regularly.

Anyway, I simply don't see flying vehicles in my face as the be-all and end-all tactic that will guarantee my expensive unit is utterly useless. ~it doesn't make it "useless" it reduced it's effectiveness, fucks up your plans, and keeps the troops inside out of a good portion of the game Particularly not against Mech Eldar, who frankly don't have a hell of a lot more ranged firepower than the Marines do, and typically on fewer platforms.

Kirby- Er what points? Fallacies don't make great arguments and you seem to miss the point entirely of what slowing a significant portion of your army can do beyond the extra uses touched on here and by Smurfy (i.e. tri-rhino, V-walls, objective denial, etc.). 2000 generally but if you run double Raider below that your army isn't outshooting anything. If you're running one Raider well, it's even easier to block as there are multiple blocking units in armies and only one unit to be blocked. Define plenty of terrain? 25% or fail! *mad giggle.* Well let's compare a 2K Dual Riader versus a 2K Mech Eldar with Vypers. That's roughly 2x Typhoons/2xRifleDreads/2xPreds/2xMM Tac bunkers versus 2x Prisms/Falcon/2-3x BL Serpents/3x Dragon Serpents. That's a lot of suppression fire from both directions but Eldar generally have better defenses thanks to AV12 and mobility. It also appears the SM are firing against the same amount if not more platforms. We're assuming the 3 squads of Vypers are dealing with the Raiders but when you start running one Raider the vypers are able to block in waves which opens up more firepower to deal with the extra Dread/Pred/Speeder/Tac or whatever cominbation you use.

These type of comments really make people wonder what type of Eldar opponent's you face, ~footdar, the best build evar, duh especially coupled with your e-peen claim. If you're versusing good opponents with good lists (i.e. not Necrons, Orks, Daemons, Chaos, etc. + not failtastic lists which aren't balanced) you shouldn't be winning more than 60% because 40k is balanced (contrary to belief). Win %'s get inflated when versusing, new players, bad players or bad lists, not when versusing good balanced lists with a good and experienced general behind them.

Smurfy- Which is why we movement block, because we really don't want to waste our time shooting something we're unlikely to kill anyway? So we do "Eldar tricks" that anyone can do, they just don't think about it much.

I play 2k, you probably don't have enough terrain or your opponent doesn't know how to force the LR to move in such a way it nearly has to plow through some terrain to get into the action.

Watch 300 sometime, ~man worst fucking movie ever and imagine the cliffs (Hot Gates) as Vehicles or your own units. Your Land Raider is the Persians and my piddly lil' Vyper are the Spartans plugging the small lil' gap blocking your way through.

Persians sure as hell didn't like it and Land Raiders full of 300 or so points worth of guys don't either.

You make a better suggestion of dealing with a Land Raider more efficiently than a 50 point skimmer and you have a argument. Right now, all I have done is suggest something amazingly simple and practical. You, on other hand, think it should be a freakin' chore.

Maybe I should let that Land Raider move freely towards my lines and actually do something...wait... no...I don't like Terminators hitting my lines so I keep them back well away from anything important...yeah. ~so if ranting for word after word doesn't get your point across do you really think succinctly wrapping up your point is going to help?

Wyddr- Very well, I will:

1) Avoid it. You have the speed, the maneuverability, and the guns to keep it away from you and at a distance for many turns. Particularly useful during kill point games; no Vypers or fancy shenanigans required. ~might work against a shit player

Smurfy- Um, when it has a threat zone of 20", it's 2 turns max of 3 before it's on me, unless you're dumb and hang it in the back corner, in which, as I stated, I have no need to do this. BTW, I am avoiding it using this strategy, if I dictate the Land Raider's movement rather than let it dictate my movement, I am still on the upper hand here. Thanks for the false advice #1.

Wyddr- 2) Trap it. Let them assault some thing apparently worthwhile ~like Vypers hahaha, contradiction FTW, then pounce. This nabs you both the Termies *and* the Raider, as opposed to just feeding it multiple units that you spent points on and that could be doing something else.

Smurfy- This is trapping it...IT CAN'T MOVE. Just because I didn't say the word Trap doesn't mean it's a trap...Do I need to bring Admiral Ackbar in here too? Need a Yu-Gi-Oh Trap Card? A Trap Door? ~trap door spider? Man, I totally wannea let the Termies charge something, that completely disregards the tactical suggestion here of just sacrificing a otherwise weak unit No. Nay you say I should use a ton of resources to guard your Land Raider. No, Ir won't fall for this, I am still gonna use my piddly lil' AV 10 Open-Topped pathetic Skimmer to block your Raider and Termies from doing anything noteworthy. It's like saying I should give the Termies what they want. It's like saying letting the Termies do what they're designed for anyway. It's like saying "ignore this Smurfy guy, he doesn't know what he's talking about, come to my nasty assault squad of doom and let them do the thing they do best."

Wyddr- 3) Bike Council + Autarch Fusion Gun = Dead Raider/locked Assault Termies

Smurfy- Reality check - Fusion gun flops (Wow, it can miss!) its pen roll and TH/SS Termies > Bike Council as your Assault Termies are 200, a Jetseer Council is like 500...Man I totally used my Council efficiently there, they can't even get past the 2+ Armour Save. Am I stupid? Thanks for the false advice #2. And again - You're suggesting using 500 points to deal with a 500 point threat, I'm suggesting using 50 points to deal with a 500 point threat. I'm on top here ~we are at nerd rage factor 9 folks, she's gonna blow

Wyddr- 4) D-Cannons: ~bwahahahahahahahahahahahahah ah hahahahahahahahaha ok i'm done no hahahahahahahahahaha what the fuck hahahahahahahahah omg, I think my brain just exploded the Assault Terminators are coming to you, so the range isn't a factor. LRs are more likely to drop to a D-cannon barrage than BS3 Bright Lances

Smurfy- Holy crap, you took D-cannons hoping 1) You hit, 2) you can get 2 5+'s in a row on the whole Vehicle Damage Sequence and 3) I gave up my heavy slots for pathetic D-Cannons that their weapons teams that die to Bolters ? You're gonna suggest Fortuning the D-Cannons now? Please, please forward this news to the Eldar players, see how far it gets them. False advice #3 ~this just in. D-Cannon improves footdar. News at 11

Wyddr- All four of those are easier to do, require less risk, ~have quintuple the opportunity cost and will ultimately result in a *dead* Land Raider, rather than a still present one you have to keep sending stuff after.

Smurfy- What's the risk? I sacrifice 50 points to disable 500. False advice #4

Wyddr- As I said, we disagree on the practicality of this tactic. In essence, I don't think it's terribly practical whereas you do. Until we happen to face one another across a game board sometime, I doubt either of us are going to be convinced. ~but that's mostly because you're a fucking idiot that can't admit that he's wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Smurfy- I don't see anything more practical -

I don't give up a valuable Heavy Support slot, check.

My Vyper is expendable, check.

I stopped a major factor in your list (Again, if you try to argue your 500 points of Termies + Land Raider is not useful, then you might as well play 1250 point games if you're used to 1750.)

I am using tactics and forethought, you are thinking from immediacy.

Sure we can disagree and I'm trying to show you the sillyness of your suggestions. You try the suggestions your making with a Eldar list, go ahead. I on the other hand play BOTH marines and Eldar, and wow...I have seen this is the most practical solution?

It's like saying with Tau don't use the Piranhas to block movement and provide immediate threat. The Vyper does the same thing, abite in a more indirect manner. (Can't likely blow up the LR, but no need, I'm making the thing useless ANYWAY.) ~well let's just take a more moderate approach and say making it less usefull

Don't worry, apparently the majority of the Internet agrees with you, surely you must be right, and I face people with Internet lists all the time and do this very tactic and they balk at it's simplicity.

I think we could use Chess as a final example.

How do most Grandmasters win their games? A clever sacrifice.

I'm doing the exact same thing here.

Wyddr- My, my, my, Smurfy. You're getting pretty angry, here. ~well it's your fault, you antagonizing piece of shit. I'm not involved in this in any direct way and I'm angry at you too.

I think the crux of my argument lies in the *inability* of those 50 points to effectively nullify my 500, but nevermind. I haven't the need to point out anything further, since I think you are significantly overstating your claims. I've seen blocking used, I've used it myself, and it doesn't work anywhere near as effectively as you describe unless you get very, very lucky. ~you're doin it wrong

In any event, I'm done here. Let others debate you if they like.

As my parting point, however, let me just say this:

A *clever* sacrifice is one that actually injures your opponent without his realizing it. A Land Raider full of Terminators may act as that sacrifice just as efficiently as a 50 point Vyper for you see, whereas the Vyper is easily destroyed, the Land Raider will remain a threat for the entire game given your suggestion. Better to just kill it and have done than dance about. ~umm you just diproved your own point mr. "I'm trying too fucking hard to be deep and introspective." Keeping a LR out of the fight for a few turns by blocking it is the deffinition of injuring your opponent without his realizing it. jackass

Of course, the Eldar *do* so love to dance about, though. Logged

Smurfy- Uh huh, the Lyand Raider full of Terminators perfectly happy stuck in there all game?

I'm fine losing 150 points of Vypers to make that happen.

Angry? You make a ton of false suggestions, a ton of bad advice that is very obvious. (Suggesting D-Cannons, holy crap.) I bet you are angry too, because you let that one go. Every Eldar player knows what happens to D-Cannon teams - they die very easily. AND to take them over the other Heavy Support slots, is like heresy to them. ~burn the witch

Go to the Eldar section, see if your words fly, go right ahead.

I'm not overstating my claims, 50 points in front of a Land Raider effectively gives you a horribly tough predicament your next turn, you don't see it? Well you haven't played enough people yet or haven't had it used against you.

I mean, you say blocking's been used against you, how? ~pics or it didn't...fuck it, I give up...

Was it infantry you could just tank shock past? Were you cheating? Tell me feasibly how my idea is a dumb one, because in 40k, I can't think of anything better than to make a good portion of the enemy list effectively useless.

Do give me a real game example, but since you haven't had it used against you apparently, you can't judge accurately. ("Here's my hypothetical answer to something that might happen." and me: "Here's my actual answer to when this DOES happen."

I however, have been on the receiving end of this and a user. Maybe I know what it's like?

QuoteReally, I am Flat Outing a Vyper in front of the Land Raider full of Termies I effectively take out a Assault Hammer and mobile threat out from your list. If it wasn't a threat like a Tacticals in the LR, why would I do it? Termies are a threat to any list, I donno what game you're playing where 1/4 to 1/3 your army is sitting and waiting all game in a Transport is effective use of their time.

Meanwhile, my whole army outside that Vyper is taking on the more manageable threats. You don't see the bigger picture, and that's the biggest fault in your arguments. ~40k Myopia. Kirby, help me out here and you could find yourself a niche in the scientfic world

I? I see I have sent a piddly lil' skimmer to shut down a good portion of your list for a turn. That for me is not game changing but for you, oh my it is.

Eldar can try to dance. Then someone grows the balls to just weather our storm and rush at us.

Then we're screwed.

Or, we slow you down doing devious things like this.

Then we stand a chance.

One last thing -

So you're saying you are cheating by Shooting in the MOVEMENT PHASE PRIOR TO THE MOVE?

In the case of Land Raiders, for instance, you can simply twist them in such a way as to make it extraordinary difficult, if not impossible, for them to be bracketed by the same three units. Likewise you can flank them with other vehicles, you can shoot one or two of the units in question prior to the move, and so on.

If not and playing by the rules, you are still immobile for that turn, and yet AGAIN the tactic is achieved.
~took you long enough to realize that. I was light years ahead of you :) you suck at life Smurfy ;)

Kirby- When you block mech you're slowing it's movement. It either can't move and shoots you, has to try and ram you (and if you're close that ram is low Strength) or go around you. Going around you means it's going slower than normal and/or has to go through terrain. Few people want to move their Land Raiders through terrain so early in the game as the fateful 1 has a knack for showing up. This action delays whatever you've blocked unless they are lucky with their ram and grab explodes! result(s) and can make it easier for your army to deal with the rest of the army which has remained unblocked. Let's look at a picture example from Vassal because I don't have a Land raider model anymore (FTW!).

I've used Vypers in this example because Wyddr & Smurfy are arguing over them specifically but other excellent units for blocking are Piranhas and Land Speeders. In the before shot the Vypers have used their 4" coherency rule to create as much horizontal spread as possible whilst rotating to create more vertical spread. This forces the Raider even further around than usual and the net result is a max move of about 5-6". So much for Wyddr's "thin profile of the Vyper" slowing down the Raider; rotating works. Even with one Vyper/Speeder/Piranha you're chopping off 4-5" of movement or can guide the blocked unit a direction you want. What this has done is given the blocking army an extra turn to deal with the rest of the opponent's army and if those blocking units aren't dealt with (particularly important w/Piranhas & Speeders who have meltas), they can block again and shoot. The bigger the blocker footprint (i.e. Smurfy's example of 3 Vypers) the bigger the delay. 3 Vypers could effectively halt the Raiders forward movement thanks to the 4" coherency rule. Ramming squadrons of skimmers is also out because you need multiple explodes results to get by. One is unlikely as it is.

Remember that blocking is efficient because you are applying minimal force to slow a significant portion of your opponent's force which buys your army more time to deal with your opponent's force. Whilst a Falcon might be better at blocking than Vypers, it's also a significant investment in points whilst the Vypers/Speeders/Piranhas/DE Raiders/etc are less important to the army as a whole. As Smurfy and NewHeretic state, it's a sacrifice worth taking.


Damon said...

I wanted to vote you the winner, Dethtron, for correctly noting that "300" is a sucktastic movie.

So! Much! Failsauce!

Smurfy said...

I find it appropriate to use a sucktard movie as a example to a sucktard person with no forethought.

The fact I put up with all of that ALONE until the guy says now he refuses to debate it (Debate? WHAT DEBATE?!) anymore makes him a wuss.

Oh, should mention that the entire Moderation team is on both our asses for this fiasco but they're on my side as they see I actually...make sense?


Smurfy said...

For the record, I was on such a steaming pile of rage, it's probably why I didn't notice some things until later, when I started bolding his stupidity in my comments in the threads.

Highlight is the guy whipped out his e-peen, everyone loves seeing that. /sarcasm

Chumbalaya said...

What is this I don't even.

Fuck me, those non-Smurfy/Kirby asstards and fucking stupid.

Kirby said...

<3 pink but not the picture.

Also Smurfy, rage against the Mods on 40kOnline because they took down the link to the blog. Make sure you put my name back up because otherwise they are stealing my content! Bastards :P.

Dethtron said...

Kirby, you should be thanking me for not ommitting you from the polls in lieu of Tom Kirby as I'd planned :p

Smurfy: why the hell would the mods care about this? From what I saw, unless shit got deleted, I can't see how anybody broke any forum rules. Meh, just another nail in the coffin for forums....

Smurfy said...

I am apparently making hostile accusations and him flamebaiting.

The_King_Elessar said...

If this guy thinks Fire Dragons go in Falcons, and D-Cannons are good (especially at anti-tank) then he should be banned from the internet.

Fucking retard.

Anonymous said...

I think the real winner is the two Smurfs....

Anonymous said...

I think the real winner is the two Smurfs....

SandWyrm said...

Hey! Blocking Raiders works for Guard too!


Oh and I owe you a swirly for the Smurf Porn thing. Ug!

Anonymous said...

I don't know why you people would be taking vypers, Footdar are obviously the most awesomez so why would you have Vypers floating around?

Possibly the funniest thing I think I've seen is a raider being blocked by his own land-speeder.... just ask Chumb.

I would like to know why Tickle Fight, Reverse Cowgirl and the Jackhammer aren't in the Poll??

Medical Lesson of the Week.... That is a text-book example of an 'apple-core' lesion of the descending colon. I'm not sure of it's relevance but did Dr Girlfriend provide it??

Dethtron said...

Bro_LO: haha, not from Dr. Girlfriend, she's a Podiatrist, but if you want some X-rays from here blooper reel I can probably oblige some time.

If you want a hint about the relevance of the pic: It blocks movements :)

Anonymous said...

A podiatrist... why is she always on call then? How many emergencies are there for podiatrists - not being rude... an actual question.

Not completely true about the 'blockage' but we'll go with it... nice pic!

Hey.. I've got some got some good pics of xrays too... insertions FTL!

Dethtron said...

Brother Loring: well the pic was supposed to be a bowel obstruction. Google images FTL.

as far as podiatrists being on call, they usually have to go in and round on existing patients on weekends when on call, which generally takes up until around noon for Dr. Girlfriend. Podiatric emergencies are very rare, but she is called in every once in a while. It's usually gangrene related, but she has had a gunshot or two.

Anonymous said...

Well it is sort of bowel obstruction as there are some serious dilated loops of bowel... but you can see barium/gastrograffin (the white stuff) both sides of the obstruction, so it's not a total obstruction. But in all honesty, that's probably more relevant...

I'll let you go past, but I'm going to seriously fuck you and the rest of you up in the process!

anyway... too much medic-chat (I bet you get a lot of it... apologies from all of us)!

Messanger of Death said...

But what about all the super sexy overflow lolz


Christopher said...

Oh man I lol'd at D-Cannons so very hard! I think he realized he was wrong and threw up one last ditch effort to get Smurfy off of his back.

Movement blocking is the shit! I got a kid to attempt a Ram on my Speeder and died laughing inside as he realized what happened when I rolled a successful dodge.

Oh and I also made a Vindicator and Rhino all but useless for a full 2 turns with Piranhas.