Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 16

This week Kirby got quite pissed off about this Heresy-Online post asking for a New Edition. So pissed, in fact that he rattled off a short, eloquent little rebuttal on 3++ is the New Black.
Now, with Kirby's permission I have decided to take a swing at the morons who think 5th ed 40k is broken, believe in codex creep, and won't shut up about the meta-game.....whether or not the metagame exists, I don't give a flying fuck if Wraithguard pwn in your basement. Besides, rough riders pwn in my basement! As you may well expect, my reply to these jerk-offs will be considerably less pleasant than Kirby's. Man if Kirby keeps feeding me this good stuff, we'll have to start a spin-off blog called "Kirby and Dethtron's tag-team dethmatch" or something :)

As I'm slightly pressed for time this week, we'll jump right into things and see what the hell happens. In case you were wondering, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my amusement. I will snow-mobile people in red. Make sure you hit up the poll on the right of your screen to vote on this week's big winner.

quachill- Well I don't know about other gaming clubs but mine has become a wall of vehicles. Every one just puts everything they can in vehicles and gets in your face. ~probably because that's a fairly good tact most of the time. Fucking shame that somebody migh want to win a game of skill.


That coupled with the annoying sweeping advance rule where one guy can run down a 30 man unit and I say we got problems. ~if 1 man broke a unit of 30 dudes, you probably have other problems to worry about...also, I can't for the life of me think of a unit that can have over 30 guy in it. How did your opponent break your squad without killing anybody?

The over powered codexs ~Hmmm over-powered CODICES, that must be why Stelek's Tau have made a good showing at 'ard boyz. It's like the newest 'dex on the block, right? Do I even need to mention that his list also isn't fully mechanized? cant be fixed but with a new addition I would like to see vehicles become more dangerous for there passengers if the explode. ~yeah because automatically losing 1/3 to 1/2 of a squad of IG in an explosion is way underpowered. There were more restrictive rules in 4the edition. This led to few people using transports... ps, that game sucked dick. Maybe no armor save just a straight wound check.

Modify or get rid of the sweeping advance rule. I know its there to speed up the game but seeing one model wipe out 30 is just ridiculous. ~wait you're about to tell us you're playing 'nids and you're worried about sweeping advances. How the hell are you not fearless? Whatever it is you're doing- you're doing it wrong!

Complaining done, going up to have my nids get ran over by the wall of rhinos and land raiders. ~ahh and here is the cusp of the problem. You're a shitty unimaginative player who thinks that the only way he can get better at the game is to change the rules to benefit him. Fuck you, fuck the horse you road in on, fuck your mother, fuck your father, fuck your ideologies, and fuck your smug sense of self-entitlement. Rant done...

jaws900- And thats why you are complaining. Nids are rahter new so there codex was built in mind wiht 5th gen. Also it semes funny to me that the person complaing aobut lots of tanks and lone modals beatting down the horde is very ironic(if thats the write word) from a player who has NO tanks and attakcs with the horde. ~man, I am hoping against all hope that English isn't your native language. If it is, I have lost all hope for the future. If not, keep up the good work :)


We need new codexs for Necrons, Dark Eldar, Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters before we even think about a new rule book. Also it only came out a while ago and just becuase your army might be struggling you want to re-write the rule book. ~maybe it's just semantics, but there's a world of difference between a struggling army and a struggling player the main thing you do is build a new list to combat these problems. You can get sweepign advanced if your fearless so Synapse and get some Zaonthropes and monsters.

Creon- your nids have trouble with walls of armor? Odd, with all the MCs, Rending, and high STR assaults, I thought you'd enjoy crunchy shells with chewey centers! ~not to mention that the new Tyranids codex fixed the issue of not having decent anti-armor shooting. Have you seen the stats for Hiveguard, Tyrannofexes, or Zoanthropes?

Azezel- ~hey congrats, you spelled your own name wrong I'm not a massive fan of mech myself - or sweeping advance either - but 5th still has legs.


6th will probably hit maybe 2012 or 2013 which would seem about right.

If you really don't like mech, try adding more terrain to the feild. ~a thinly veiled criticism? Shit that was terrible. pretend I didn't write that... Tanks become less appealing if they can't squeeze between rubble and get immobalised too often by dangerous terrain.

Stella Cadente- I doubt you'll get much sympathy, I find the attitude from allot of players since 5th has changed to something quite disgusting "if your not playing mech your a worthless piece of crap and you don't deserve to play this game" ~hey Stella YOU'RE a worthless piece of crap and you don't deserve to play this game and then continuing to belittle, mock and insult you for as long as they possibly can due to there god complex. ~Why don't you go back to your almighty Footdar while I crush you with my Imperial Guard from on high, bitch

CLT40k- Wow, so am I guessing that you're one of these guys who goes up the the shop... loses a game or two because you don't know how to make a list... and then blames your failure to adapt on WAAC Players who are only playing lots of mech to win - Are you serious? ~why so serious If you're belittled, mocked and insulted (to use your words) it probably has very little to do with any kind of God complex, but more likely do to making statements like the one above. Seriously... being competative does not mean not having fun.... ~nor does it not mean not making double negatives And, what if I really like tanks... why are you crapping on my dreams and imagination. I sometimes miss my days in the USMC (I drove a tank) ~now I'm jealous. I want to drive a real tank and playing 40K with all my little tanks is a BIG part of why I like the game... Not just because I think winning is cool too.....

Stella Cadente- then do a tank army, mechanized has a focus on transports, not tanks. ~and most of the transports in the game are tanks. or am I just reading the unit entries for rhinos, chimerae, razorbacks, falcons, wave serpents, devil fish, trukks, battle waggons, etc wrong?

Calamari- Cool your boots, the rule book isn't you're problem, it's you're local meta game, you can't cry out for the nerd stick because of it. ~of course, the metagame (whatever the fuck that even means at this point) is clearly the problem, not the fact that quachill is a terrible player, unimaginative, and a big whiny pice of shit. What you do is adapt and counter thier list. Facing rhinos and chimeras? Load up on Hive Guard, got Land Raider trouble? Get some Zoanthropes on the go. 40k is a very Darwinian game so all you can do is adapt and counter in a cycle that keeps the game fresh. I've played since 3rd and I think this is the best edition yet.


As for mech, sure it's normally the most efficient option but it's not the only one. I've played against foot slogging CSM before and that was a challenge, there were so many marines... ~not even going to respond to that one

quachill- Can I crack armor? Certainly. Do I want to make every one of my lists with 30%-50% armour cracking units? NO! I would like to build fun versatile lists. ~how is taking a list that's made to tackle multiple threats like armor AND infantry not versatile? that's the epitome of versatility you dumb fuck. I just noticed that you are so full of shit that I've had to interrupt every single one of your sentences. Do the world a favor and kill yourself. In my local store the wall of armor dictates almost half my list design. ~clearly it's not dictating hard enough if you're still having problems getting rolled over by rhinos That didn't use to be the case. ~and then the game changed...almost 2 years ago. get used to it. I'm tired of fighting a ton of mech.


It basically comes down to if, I want to have half a chance of winning I have almost 50% of my list forced upon me because of the prevalence of mech lists. ~as my good friend Lauby once said: "if life gives you lemons; shut up and eat the fucking lemons."

I only dedicated 25% to 33% of my list to armour cracking in the past. This gave me alot of flexibility in list building. Meh I've been playing this game for years and I skipped 4ed entirely so I guess if Mech just stays out of hand in my area I can break for another edition. ~and the world of 40k will miss you dearly. have fun jacking off into socks in your mom's basement or whatever it is you are planning on doing until 6th ed comes out. It just sucks, I like my codex its versatile, ~these are just the kind of problems that "Dick Move's Grammar all up in your Vagina" could be fixing for the price of a cup of coffee a day. I just don't have any opponents who aren't hard core power gamers. ~so suck less or find new friends. better yet, just go ahead and quit.

ok off to play may get some arbys or something. Green elf needs food badly!!

CLT40k - Versitile means - competent in many areas and able to turn with ease from one thing to another. So wouldn't being able to handle mech fit into this category as well. Honestly mate, what sort of list do you want to run? ~well if he weren't already committed to tyranids, I would say Footdar.... Case in point, when the Zoe's show up and start mind zapping my stuff... I cringe, and my buddy smiles... that's the game... it's about conflict....

Calamari- yes you do have a versatile codex and you should use that to your advantage. The situation calls for you to pop tanks and you are able to do that, do it enough and you'll make mech unviable and force them to rethink their list, that's the metagame of 40k and if you've been playing as long as you say you have you would know it. ~pics of quachill playing 3rd ed or it didn't happen Besides you can't complain about something that's well within your power to change. ~you can if you're stubbornly resistant to change to the point of belligerence


I'm not trying to sound harsh, I'm actualy very sympathetic, for months I got rolled by mech eldar players. I didn't sit their and complain about it. Instead over the course of about a year I tweaked changed and tinkred with my army untill I forced them to change and so the cycle will start again. ~so you're saying you learned to play better... novel concept, that

Ultimatley it's down to you wether you skip this edition, I hope you don't though because in that time you could be the one dictating your opponents army composition.

Don_Keyballs- Play some where else... simple as that. If you want opponents who aren't all in mech... find new opponents. You say that you don't have the versatility to build the lists you want... to be frank... you can build any list you want... If you want to win 90% of the time... then you have to build a list to counter your opponents. ~sounds like list tailoring to me. how about you just try and build a list that can handle nearly every situation with some competence. then while you're at it, quit blaming lists for making or breaking your game and learn how to play better. those aren't two mutually exclusive concepts Complaining that you hate building lists so you can win is like Complaining that the cheery on top of your ice cream is too sweet. ~my sundae tastes a little dour.... man, I just can't get think of a non-corny joke to save my life today.

GrizBe- Pretty much, sounds like you've just got a suck gaming group. If every playr has to rely on mechs to do anything on teh battlefeild, they can't be that good of players or are just a bunch of immature 'more power' types in it for winning rather then fun. ~hey you. yeah you. fuck you. wanting to win and not playing like a dumb fuck do not mean you're a power gamer. this is a fundamental flaw in your argument that the thousands of idiots crying about the same thing will never seem to grasp. Just because you lose or your opponent takes units that aren't sub-par doesn't mean that he was a WAAC player.

CLT40k- I'd like to address a few things in your post... but I have no words to describe your lack of understanding here. You just don't seem to "get" what the game is about. ~well played CLT


For Gizbe and Stella - You are pretty much asking your opponents to play with bad lists so that you feel better about your own bad choices in the FoC... Why not ask them to only play with 1500 points while you play with 2000? That would let you be more versitile right? ~that would be the most versatile yet.

Kirby- ~ hey I've run out of pictures of you that I can dredge up on google image search. please take some more and send them to me if you're going to keep showing up on FNIF. Balanced lists can be made with mech and against mech. Saying the strength of mech in 5th edition is limiting versatility is...well not right. It took a long time for the general community to understand how good transports and mech in general is ~has the community learned this? threads like this one seem to be a pretty strong counterpoint to your claim (see how long it took for Daemons/Orks/Lash-Chaos to stop being called competitive [even though some people still claim they are]) but there are a lot of lists which aren't all tanks which work very well.


Hybrid IG, Hybrid Tau, Vanilla Bikers, Jumper BA (inc. Bloodwing), Loganwing Missiles, TWC SW, Blood Rodeo ~shamelessly self-promote much? seriously, you should link it next time, Tyranids in any form, etc. Out of my armies 1/3 are fully mech, 1/3 are hybrids and 1/3 have 0 tanks and all are very competitive and good lists.

quachill- Guess I just needed a good whine. ~would you care for a fine camembert to go with that? Won a game ~I doubt that very much, lost a game had fun in both.


I am still wishing for the good old 3rd ed days though. Out of 2nd 3rd and 5th I have the most love for 3rd. ~then why don't you marry it?

My memory may be rose colored but it seemed like 3rd ed was better balance than 5th or maybe the skill level of my opponents kept it all balanced. ~so as your opponents have grown and learned to suck less over the years, it's clearly the new edition that's the problem... please pine about the halcyion days of yore a little more, I'm beginning to give a flying fuck

Back to list building and winged tyrant converting. ~flying MCs is so broken, I can't wait until 6th ed comes out and they ban their use. Too much power now. I miss 2nd ed, when tyranids couldn't fly.

CLT40k- On competition - If you have a really crappy list.... I'm not going to want to play you. There won't be competition. In truth, I'd like everyone to have the best list they can bring... then when we match it against mine, the game is about tactical skill and luck with the dice. There really isn't much fun in clubbing a baby seal. ~except bathing in their blood afterwards I think I'm pretty competative and that means I would rather your list isn't sucky so that we can have a fair and matched game. I get nothing for beating up subpar players/lists. ~pro-tip: don't play quachill. I feel like you wouldn't enjoy it much.


The kicked dog routine is getting old. ~then let's stop kicking that poor dog and start beating the living shit out of that dead horse over there The senarios we play are designed to determine a winner (except the autotie mission) We agree on points to play so is it really MY fault for taking a list I think is good? How bad does my list have to suck to make you feel good? ~maybe you need to whip out your foot lightning claw terminator thunderfire list- no deep striking allowed, it's too powerful.

GrizBe- Pretty obvious CLT40k is a clueless troll when they've only made 3 posts and they're all on here ~yeah, he couldn't possibly be somebody who wanted to join a community that he heard was good, so he joined. too bad he had to find out that nonsense shit like this still pops up here. no seriously, isn't Heresy-Online supposed to have a pretty good reputation? This is like Dakkaseer Lounge level quality right here. and what's with anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours automatically being a troll? I swear to gOD, if one more person calls me a troll when I'm trying to hold a legitimate convestion, I will figure out a way to force choke them through the Internet . You obvious don't get the game is about having fun... not being an obnoxious jackass which you clearly seem to be.


The point I was making is if you have to rely on mechs to win the game for you, your clearly not very good at it and only care about 'power' rather then tactics and being adapatable to cope with different missions. ~this just in: this whole argument will fall appart under the slightest amount of scrutiny. Although we all know that using good units means you don't need any tactical acumen- autowin FTW!

CLT40k- So Grizbe... You're saying that the mark of a "powerbuild" is the Rhino? And if you HAVE to take a rhino, then you're clearly not a good player and you only care about "power" rather than fun..... Thats just crazy talk.... just crazy talk. ~rhino = too powerful


I think we can all agree that the game is about having fun. And what I hear you saying is that my way to have fun with the game is wrong because I think it's fun to compete with my friends and actually care about the result of the game. (caring makes it more fun) That's the way people have fun in pretty much all organized sports. There is a goal, we compete for it, at the end you shake hands. Please help me understand how being competative is wrong cause I think you're just sounding whiny?

Nobody likes to play an obnoxious jackass... A douche with a competative list and a douche with a bad list is still no fun to play. But not because of thier list... but because they're a douche...

comrade- -Shrugs-

I have no need for tanks, ~in Soviet Union tank drives you nor do I have to worry about them

I have enough Imperial Guardsmen on foot with enough special and Heavy weapons to field an all foot army up to 3000pts. ~well I have more AND it's already been mentioned that IG can pull off a non-mech build

And I love it when the opponent starts the games with a "Oh, no tanks? This should be easy"

Finished with a ~"oh crap I forgot to bring any flamers or templates. I'm a moron"

"You were cheating, there is no way you could field that many troops with that many heavy weapons."

oh... just Glorious.

The more you spend on Transports and vehicles, the less you can spend out-fitting your infantry. ~and the more you spend on outfitting your infantry, the bigger the opportunity cost of not having more units.

CLT40k- Hey Comrad, what if the game is followed up with a "Hey man, good game... Those infantry sure are a tough fight for my Rhino powerbuild..."


What if your opponent dosen't accuse you of cheating... still havin a good time? ~no, I live for conflict

There are lots of builds that don't rely on Mech... Kirby mentioned a few. But at the same time, there are a lot of good builds that do rely on mech...

If sombody called you a cheater cause they got beat. Or that they made fun of your list before you played. Those are the actions of a tool... but are unrelated to their models... ~as a side note, I'd like to point out that from Grisbe's last post to this piont, there are no typos. Well done all