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Friday, May 28, 2010

Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 13

Time for lucky number round 13. I broke my several week long promise not to comment on BoLS if it could be avoided. What followed reaffirms my belief that not commenting is probably the way to go.
 Fritz, in a rare miss, posted what seemed like a half finished article about throwaway units a few days ago. He discusses using psychology to trick your opponent into going after a "throwaway unit." Seems like this is a familiar topic this week here as we dealt with it in my Split Deployment Post. As you know, I totally support using throwaway/sacrificial units as I believe that sacrificing a unit for the greater good is most always a good idea. My problem with the Fritz article is that he basically says 'fuck with your opponents head to get them to attack what you want him to attack' and then fails to develop the thought further or explain how to do this. So this was supposed to be helpful how.....?

Even worse, he brings up how he uses a unit of rippers as his own sacrificial unit. I still don't get how this is supposed to draw fire from other stuff in his Nid list that doesn't suck dick. Is he playing with the special-ed class? Are all of his opponents N00bs? Is he deploying them a particular way, forcing you to attack them? I doubt it, so I really want to know how this is working for him.

So, I ask a (as yet unanswered) legitimate question and then promptly get trolled hard and accused of being a troll myself. What the hell, am I really such an asshole that I don't know when I'm trolling any more? Whatever, like I care what the peanut gallery thinks. Wanna see what happened?

As always none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement. Be sure to hit the poll in the upper right corner of the screen and vote on this week's biggest winner amongst the losers. Who's ready for some snowmobiling?

Dethtron- what kind of jacked up target priority does your opponent have if they're worried about shooting at rippers? how are you tricking them into caring about them? ~brusque, yes; trolling, no

Michael Taylor- I can only speak for myself, but as an Ork player at heart and generally the "warrior" type in other games, I'de probably want to wipe every single unit off the board, including rippers. ~anybody else get the guys just chanting "Orks Orks Orks" in Dawn of War playing in their head while reading this? What, I'm the only one of you with voices in his head? Seeing little squigglies coming at me is just a challenge that must be squashed and laughed at, the fact that they would probably survive a few volleys would just make me angry and more determined to kill it. I realise this isn't the smartest strategy, but then I don't win many games either :P ~lol, I wonder why that might be? Playing Orks for starters ::ducks:: Nevertheless, your blood-lust makes me happy.

Bill- hmmm... I wonder if you just skimmed the article or actually read it. But what fritz said is that he likes to use them for someone he is playing against to worry about the rippers instead of something else playing on the instinct of the player. ~who in their right mind fears the rippers? I really want to know how this is supposed to work An example would be this, you have swarms of bugs screaming their way towards you. The instinct of the some players looking down the mouths of swarms of these creatures is to shoot whats right in front of them. I would in real life if faced with a real tyranid threat. ~ 2 things: 40k =/= real life and shooting what's in front of you if there are better targets is a total newbie mistake I imagine enough ankle biting would kill me eventually. ;)Fritz basically uses the rippers as a bait. Not all fish go after the same bait but some do. You might be a fish who has taken the bait before and learned that bad things can come from attacking there and maybe you might of forgotten that some of the other fishies out there still go for things like that. I know I do from time to time. ~are you trying to bait me into an attack (d'oh). Well looks like it worked because....

Dethtron- hmmm, I wonder if you read my comment or just skimmed it. My point was that rippers shouldn't pose enough of a threat to draw fire away from the good stuff in a Tyranid list (mostly MCs or possibly Warriors/stealers). Not all fish go for the same bait, but smart ones go for the tastiest. ~hindsight- I missed a golden opportunity to say something snappy like "looks like you're fishing for crappie." man, that would have been priceless.

Bill- I actually had time to read your two sentence comment but thanks for asking though. I know that sometimes on blogs people can really take things the wrong way by not reading everything... :)What exactly are you playing that makes rippers not a threat? ~well, most anything, but if you must ask I play Guard, Nids, and sometimes Blood Angels Im not saying that they will munch through your entire army, but to say they are not a threat at all? ~is damn near spot on I am guessing (and this is a hypothetical response based purely on your previous posts) that you play against people who dont know how to utilize them nor have played against them at all. I do not say they are a scary as a carnifex but to avoid what exactly is in front of you is sometimes a bad move, strategically that is.

Bryan40kman- Super ~am not defensive... Maybe you would like this better? Capture and Control: Forcing Mistakes ~so I read the entire article- not just skimmed it. There is some good stuff in there, but does he really advocate using Thunderfire Cannons? Really? Then again maybe you're just trolling. ~Being a jerk is not the same as being a troll. Nor is debating...

Bill- Thanks for the link and it was a good article. You shall now earn one internet like.My first comment might be construed as a bit trollish as well as dethtron's. ~yours yes, mine not so much I apologize if I have come across that in any way. It is sad that this wonderful tool of communication known as the internet can be hard to display how one is facially communicating but thats a lot of stuff I dont want to type out right now.;) ~groan. Urge to kill rising

notimewasters-if you are shooting at rippers - then your opponet is running a shite army list. ~thank you, finally some making sense. Bonus, apparently you can say shite w/o being censored. Can you say Shiite too? You should be shooting stuff that is scary.i.e target priority - do I shoot the tervigon or the rippers

do i shoot the mawloc or the ripper

sdo i shoot the genestealers or the rippersdo i shoot the warriors or the rippers.

do i shoot a scoring unit or the rippers?etc? ~the answer: shoot just about anything other than the rippers, or maybe give the rippers a quick taste of a flamer if they really are in your way.

or do i pre -empt the charge from any other unit what so ever or take the ripper charge.rippers. how many swarms of them do you face on a regular basis and really worry about them? they are at the bottom of my list when facing tyranids as i can shoot them, and win in combat against them.

Bill- You sir are entitled to your opinion and I value that you have one. ~and you sir are positive to the point of being obnoxious To say that lists (especially 1500 to 1750 point range like fritz proposed) with rippers in it is "shite" is a stretch though ~no it isn't. rippers are a huge waste of points, which means that at a lower points game you just fucked yourself out of 50 or so points of good shit. Doesn't seem like much, but each point matters a lot in lower points games- don't waste them. Maybe you could pull it off at a higher point level if you need to bubble wrap something or just want a tar pit a unit, but I have my doubts about that too. I personally have seen lists with rippers do quite well in competitive games. Nowhere did I say that I would not shoot at the scary stuff. ~then you must have skimmed the article. the whole point of this is that you're shooting at rippers instead of scary stuff. It's about forcing an "or" situation. You only have so much firepower in a game (especially at low points). the point is that you're having to make a choice about what you're shooting. you can't have your cake and eat it too What a good player would do with a "shite" list would be to use the rippers to waste the time of a unit that could give a Mawloc or whatever a hard time. Yes you can shoot them and win in close combat but a good commander would try to make the opponent go for the ripers. Without tactics we are just rolling dice. ~and again you fail to mention "tactics" that might make this work. I don't doubt that this is possible to pull off, but I doubt that you would be able to achieve it, unless your opponent was a much worse player than you

Buffo- in response to my initial comment If you are playing IG, and you do not take care of the Rippers, by turn two or three, they will be all up in your d00ds, and as any IG player knows, Rippers up in your d00ds is a very bad thing. ~if you're IG anybody in your dudes is bad. The warriors or MCs that are following the rippers are the real scary thing here. still don't give a shit about the rippers. If I were playing IG, carefully position a hull heavy flamer or two would take care of the rippers no sweat and not take away much firepower that I'd rather shoot at bigger threats. if we must play the god damned theoryhammer game Just because people don't use Rippers does not mean Rippers are not a good unit. ~unless, of course, people aren't using them because they're bad.. Even as a throw away bait unit, Rippers will mess with your opponent's psychology.

sketchesofpayne- I think there's a cream for that. XD ~oooh sick burn. shut the fuck up

Bill- NEW KRELM ANTI-RIPPER CREAM!Now on sale. Less bite for half the price!lol ~I'm so bloody confused right now...

dethtron- I'm not sure which reply I like better, so here are two to choose from:

1. Seriously if rippers are threatening your IG you've clearly done something very wrong, like forgotten to bring transports or left yourself wide open for an attack. At this point rippers should be the least of your worries

2. Oh noes please don't tarpit a squad of my guardsmen, how ever will I recover from the loss. ~I changed my mind, I like this one better

Buffo- 1. Yeah, because Guardsmen are in transports for all 5 - 7 turns. ~you said turn 2 is when the rippers hit in this hypothetical game that we are now playing against each other. what kind of piece of shit list are you playing if Tyranids just killed all of your Chimerae at range? All those Shooting and CC phases the Nid player had to bust your Transports never happened. ~well I haven't seen a picture, so you know the rest... As a matter of fact, the Nid player wasn't even present for the game.2. Hey, kept you from getting your troops to the objectives. ~so 1 ripper squad just held up my entire army? Damn, I really should have brought more than that 1 scoring unit with me. Congrats on the loss. ~do I get a participation trophy at least

Bryan40kman- I have face Rippers a few times and they can be a huge pain if you don't deal with them effectively. Simply ignoring them is out of the question, but focusing too much on them can be equally as problematic. I don't think sending a vet squad with flamers and a tactical squad of marines after them is necessarily making them a good bluff unit, but if you can tie up a few vehicles... That's an entirely different story. ~ummm, I'd really like to know how you're tying up vehicles with them

Bill- * Simply ignoring them is out of the question, but focusing on them can be equally problematic.*

Yes! that is true and when you field them it is a burden of somewhat for the opponent you are facing. It is not as simple though as placing them on the table and saying "Oh boy! They are gonna go crazy when they see these guys." Deployment of them is crucial as well. You cant just cast anywhere in the water. ... ~again we have somebody skirting around the issue. You've got part of the answer here, but can't follow through. so close, yet so far away why am I always relating to fishing? I stink at fishing... ~because you are a master baiter?

notimewasters- Disagree. ig armies tend to deal with rippers by scattering templates / flamers / h flamers or even close combat - if they can be arsed. ~important note about swarms that you should already know- unless you just skimmed the rules- they have vulnerable to templates. IG get a lot of free flamers on their vehicles. Say goodbye to your little friends shouldn't you be shooting the scoring units first? ~yes you should

no they do not mess with psychology- scary units do that. ~One time there was this lictor on a scenic base and it blended in with the table so well that I didn't know it was there and then I saw it when it was too late and I soiled myself in terror.

When I've played tyranids I have usually found more important things to shoot at / counter charge / deal with.


True bonus story related to the picture in the header. Dr. Girlfriend's Uncle was actually offered a role as one of the rippers in Tank Girl, but thought the script was stupid and turned it down. Instead he took a bit part in Apollo 13 as Dr. Chuck. For shame...


Chumbalaya said...

Hey look, a BoLS thread up to its neck in shit and idiocy.

New and exciting!

Anonymous said...

Tank girl was awsome...

"Thanks for the link and it was a good article. You shall now earn one internet like." -- Am I the only one who wants to slap this guy? (BTW, I think you failed on Bill's pic... Sort of funny, but dosen't match the tone)

Ishamael said...

So, no attempt to improve the readership as usual. I've attempted to post decent points, but it's often spiraled down into a dickwaving contest that culminates in someone challenging me to come to some tournament somewhere, and I tell 'em to shove it because I'm just a student.

I am surprised though, Fritz normally does quite well in showing how to apply his Jedi mind tricks. Fuck that, it's using the Bene Gesserit Voice.

Anonymous said...

Seems like you got sucked into BoLS/Fritz's post of awesome mind fuck FTW! on purpose. I do like the theory of a magic trick though. Hey kiddies look over here, while I put this in my pocket...

The_King_Elessar said...

Wow, a bad article on BoLS.

I'm on the verge of not going, again. Even the Lounge is better than the main site nowadays.

Baron Von Hoagmeister said...

Lori Petty and Naomi Watts were the only good things about the movie. I'm an old TG fan, and was disgusted at how the movie turned out. Ice T should never have been in it, either.

Good article though, I have fallen for the 'get rid of the fecking swarms as they are getting too close for comfort' thing, although I have learned my lesson. *eyeballs Mawlock warily*

Dverning said...

I'd love to see a solid, tactical response to your question. Sadly, I think Fritz's trick is to talk them up, paint them brightly, and run them at your lines while making "Booga-Booga!" noises.

Even he's admitted the his mind tricks fail when faced with logic and good gameplay. (http://saimhann.blogspot.com/2009/11/dealing-with-mathhammer-players.html)

Dethtron said...

Dverning: that's kind of my point. It's a trick that may work a handfull of times as I'm guessing it's supposed to be run. Eventually though, your newb opponent should figure out what the hell is going on and learn not to fear the ripper. Unless that is, somebody can give me an honest tactical situation that forces them to only be able to deal with rippers.

Dverning said...

Unless that is, somebody can give me an honest tactical situation that forces them to only be able to deal with rippers.

OH! I can answer that one! Field nothing but Rippers!

Alternatively, field a force with Rippers and have everything else die.

Outside of those, I've got nothing.

Hoagy said...

Blue Oyster Cult? 'Don't Fear the Ripper'?


DFM said...

@hoagy -Really? I knew someone would chime in with it, but you?

Paul said...

Never one to disappoint, old boy ;)

giles said...

Allo, NoTimeWasters here - I remember this particular head against brickwall conversation - got mixed up in a further rant lower down the thread too...

#interesting to see your reply and I agree the 'oh noes' comment was the funniest.

Have to say, I myself will be much more careful commenting on gaming sites in future as it invites so much fuss!