Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 12

Is fluff on fluff violence really a crime?
I stumbled on perhaps the nerdiest thing I have seen in my entire life this week at Boot Camp, a fairly well known IG forum. In a thread titled "Why Imperial Guard," Afrika asks what drew everyone to playing the guard. Fair enough question and one that has many diverse answers, some of which could even be interesting. Good thing this quickly devolves into a debate about which IG regiment is the best. I shit you not, there is actually a heated debate about which fictional fucking regiment has the most killing power. Funnier yet, this spawns a new thread (not included here, but you can see it if you click up on this here link) about which is the superior IG regiment that gets hijacked by a discussion of why there are (almost) no guardswomen in the game and only a handful of female models ever produced in this game. This whole thing is honestly just priceless. I'm all for fluff and reading background on my armies, but this takes it that extra step beyond sane- kind of like when a LARPer kills somebody for having his character slighted. Well maybe not quite that far, but you'll see.

In case you hadn't figured it out yet, this fight bears a serious nerd alert, so read on if you dare. As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement. Be sure to check out the polls after you read this post and vote on the least relevant answer to the poll question- that way you win! Since there are 2ish pages of droll 'I play guard because tanks are kewl' types of posts, this fight will be starting where things begin to get interesting, on page 3, and will stop just after it ceases to be amusing. Ladies and gentlemen, start your snowmobiles.....

Gree- You know, I would like to give a special shout out to the Cadians. ~big ups to my cadian dawgs, yo. raise the roof


Reading Cadian Blood convinced me that Cadians were the army for me. Cadians get alot of flak for being the generic Guard regiment, but they are not really that. They are not on the same level as say Tallarn or Vahallans. ~and you will get a lot of flak from me for not writing coherent thoughts

Cadians are born soldiers, they already know how to shoot a lasgun and squad-level tactics before normal Imperial citizens learn to walk. ~I would prove you wrong, but would feel ashamed for out-nerding you Their nobles are trained not in diplomancy ~diplomancy (n)- the attempt to come to an agreement in a seemingly hopeless diplomatic situation. Kissinger's diplomancy in handling the Soviet situation proved instrumental in his winning the Nobel Peace Prize in spite of being entirely responsible for bombing Cambodia during the Vietnam war or how to host a party, but how to command companies of men and direct battles. They are so badass they don't even use regular Stormtroopers, they have their own Kasrkin, who charge daemonhosts with knives with absolutely no fear whatsoever. ~and get the same stat line as stormtroopers, yet still know nothing about killing in white suits.

There may be other fortress worlds in the galaxy, and other brave regiments, but none of them have Cadia's special importance. Cadia bars the gate to the Eye of Terror. ~and if Cadia falls we all shall perish...oh fuck, I was having reality problems for a second there Think about that. When a Black Crusade hits they are at the center of it. Cadian Blood hammers that in for me.

QUOTE
'We are the ones that die so that all others may live,' said Osiron.
'That is a boast the men and woman of many worlds can make engineseer,' retorted Tionenji.
'Take one look where our homeworld is commissar,' Thade said. 'Now take note that the Imperium still stands. We have every right to be arrogant'

Cadians are activly sought after by commanders throughout the galaxy. Cadians serve everywere, even on the Eastern Fringe, because they are in such high demand. ~is their price sensitive to fluctuations in demand?

QUOTE
''Such is the Heroism the Cadians display that even the superhuman Space Marines hold these guardsmen as important allies.''

You know you are badass when the Emperor's Angels of Death consider you to be important allies. Few Guard regiments can claim that honor. My Eagle Claws and Praetors of Orpheus are proud to serve alongside my Cadians. ~did you really ask them or are you just speaking on their behalf? Cadian blood is the oil that greases the Imperial warmachine. ~oil is the oil that greases Cadian tanks. hmm, not warhammery enough. His holy emperor's blessed unguents are the oil that greases the Cadian engines of War. yeah, that's better

Makoto- Umm... I hate to break the party here, but the very same reason that makes it impossible for Space Marines to play a significant role in defending the Imperium prohibits Cadians from doing so - numbers and the size of the Imperium. Basically, Cadians are the IG's posterchildren, just like SMs are the Imperial posterchildren, but for 99,(99)% of Imperial citizens they're just that - something taken off the propaganda auditions. ~fact 100% of all imperial citizens are fictitious Even worse than that - most worlds will rather hail their local regiments above any others, including Cadians. ~we're all doomed, our PDF forces are useless, they have not the elite training we need to defend us from the great enemy- oh fuck reality slipped away again. it's like my life is becoming a Philip K. Dick novel.

Moreover, on many worlds (basically - any deathworld, and many a fringe world) a kid will know how to operate a lasgun/autugun/stubber/sling/bow/swing an axe or staff before it learns how to walk. For the very same reason the cadians do, it is a basic requirement for survival there. And, quite obviously, some families on such worlds will have long and proud tradition of sending off their sons (and often daughters too) into the fray to lead the "lesser born" countrymen. ~Catachan Catachan Über alles, Über alles in der... oh Sheisse, my bad

All that, obviously, doesn't diminish the importance of Cadia's location in any way ~or change the fact that Cadia ISN'T A REAL FUCKING PLACE

Gree- And how many of those regiments are sought after by commander's all over the galaxy? Or bar the way to the Eye itself? When the legions of hell come a-calling it's the Cadians who are first into battle.


Yes, their would be bias by Cadians talking about Cadians, but then again Cadians have Creed ~yes you're grammar am bad and you sentences make sense little

Marshal Argos- Real life example... If you were told everyday for your entire life that blacks were unable to learn, were 3rd class citizens, were happy to be slaves instead of living in a grass huts, eventually you would treat them like that. ~danger Will Robinson They on the other hand might even start believing it themselves.


It's all just propaganda. ~also, none of this is real Sure the Cadians are pretty good, they have to be, to be where they are, but there's nothing saying there aren't 200 other planets that produce just as well trained Regiments as Cadia. The difference is that the IMPERIUM decides to push Cadia as being the best of the best. So naturally after 10,000 years the people believe it. Personally I believe that any Drop Troop regiment is 1000 times better than any leg regiment (cadians). ~Join the mobile infantry and save...oh we're not talking about Starship Troopers, sorry Damn legs, no balls at all...

*Yes my example is extreme, and yes eventually attitudes changed, but my vision of the imperium is one that silences the voice in left field as it may disrupt the happy beliefs of the hundreds in right field. ~mmm foot notes

Gree- I doubt it, there is little evidence to suggest that so far in the fluff. You don't see Gaunt talking about how Cadians are the best or Cain doing the same thing. Cadians got that way because of their victories. In fact there is nothing at all about the Imperium pushing the Cadians as the best anywere in the Codex. They earn their reputation because they are so good. ~and damn does it feel good to be a gansta'

Lt. Nero- I agree with Argos about the Cadians. ~I agree with me, you've all lost it. you're totally bonkers They are indeed one of the best regiments out there but with milions of planets, feral cultures, penal colonies, knight worlds, death worlds and towering hive cities I belive that the Imperium has far more capable troops at its disposal. The Cadians are simple to "collect" becouse we know quite a lot about them, their homeworld, their doctrines and their skill at war but their "superiority" is only a product of propaganda and trust me a Savlar Chem Dog is a far more vile, resouceful and skilled trooper than a Cadian will ever be. ~and they are real, wait what?


If you want a real wolrd comparison, compare a standard Nato trooper with a warrior of the african militias. ~danger danger Indeed the Nato soldier had an official training, a clear structure of command and supperior weapon but the simple african militaman carries his rifle since he was a boy, has fought coutless more times than a Nato soldier and due to his violent life he is by far a more capable, resoucful and dangerous trooper. ~everyone knows that African militias don't exist...wait, now I'm confused...shit

gree- I seriously seriously doubt convicts who scavange weapons from the dead are more effective than troops trained from birth to fight and kill and who are hardened by constant warfare against the forces of Chaos. Cadians would have far more experiance aginst far more dangerous enemies than Chem Dogs who fight partially so they don't return to their homeworld ~I'd rather die than go back to prison man. Read Eisenhorn, the Kasrkin wipe out cultists in seconds and then charge a daemonhost with knives without hesitation.


In fact Fanatic Issue 95 for Epic 40k on the Savlar Chem-Dogs flat out says they are penal legion cannon fodder. ~haha, you said penal

Are you joking? ~a vulture walks on to a plane carrying 2 dead rats. He is stopped by the TSA. 'I'm sorry we can't let you on there with those.' 'why not?' 'we have a 1 carrion limit per customer' rimshot African miltiamen are notorious for their complete inability to aim in anyway then from the hip. ~and you are unable to use any grammar other then bad grammar. looks like you need more training I used to have a neighbor who served in the military at the Consulates over there and he used to tell me just exactly how badly trained they were. ~one time I knew this guy and he told me that Santa is real, so it must be true


Just look at these guys.

http://forums.babblers.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28758

In fact most of those militamen burn out before they reach the age of thirty due to drugs, disease or violence. Having friends and family who have served over in the Middle East I find it hard to believe that those militamen are anywere near the level of a trained soldier. ~because Africans and Middle Easterners are all the same right, you know since they aren't white. you're a fucking joke man

And Nato troops don't compare at all to Cadians. ~well for starters because Cadians aren't real Nato troops are not raised from birth to be soldiers, shoot before they can walk, use live ammunition training as standard and become soldiers at fourteen years old. Cadians are a soldier people trained all their lives to fight and die. Nato troops are peacekeepers. ~and exist

Makoto- And yet, SMurfs recruit their initiates from the lowlifes scavenging weapons instead of getting the specially indoctrinated and trained children from Schola Progenium - that alone speaks volumes on the subject. ~well how else are they going to fend off Gargamel?


The squad Eisenhorn comandeered weren't exactly what one might call "regular" stormtroopers (after all, Kasrkins are just stormies who refuse to call themselves stormies, nothing more, nothing less). One might just aswell base their opinion of average guardsman capabilities on say Gaunt's Ghosts (or the Tanithian core, to be exact) ~Danabnetthammer FTW or the Iron Hand Staaken.

Also city militia w/no special training or equipment wipes out bunch of average Joe cultists in seconds, so that's hardly an achievement ~I think I'll just give up on trying to explain that none of this is real, it doesn't seem to be working.

Jerboa- Cadians are no better than Catachans. ~I don't know man, do Cadians have Schwarzenegger muscles?

Gree- I never said they were. In fact I think out of all the regiments features in the Codex Catachans are really the only ones who can equal the cadians in the awesome factor for me. ~what is their awesome factor? 11? SPF40? I was going to do a ''Catachans are awesome'' post next.

Jerboa- My homegrown regiment is the most awesome. Hell, I'll write some fluff to prove it....


Anybody else think it's kinda weird arguing which Guard regiment is the most awesme? ~YES!

Sir Doober- It is.


Especially when it's obiviously the Praetorians. Because PITH HELMETS AND REDCOATS. IN SPAAAAACE. ~bloody good show, what what

Gree- I was talking about the offical GW regiments and how much I like them. There is no point discussion homegrown regiments since anyone can just one-up the other by writing their guys to be more awesome. ~mine have forcefields, so you can't hurt them. they are the most awesomest ever

Marshal Argos- And through out many years in the Army serving in 2 different Divisions, and 3 seperate Regiments, I never ONCE said, "oh that division is kick ass, they are the best".And through out many years in the Army serving in 2 different Divisions, and 3 seperate Regiments, I never ONCE said, "oh that division is kick ass, they are the best". ~but somehow never managed to figure out that Warhammer isn't real. it's a shame really The best unit I was ever in was the one that I was currently assigned to*. If I said anything else it went to undermine the moral of the soldiers that worked for me. ~yes, if you were to undermine their morals they might turn to whoring and gambling

QUOTE

I doubt it, there is little evidence to suggest that so far in the fluff. You don't see Gaunt talking about how Cadians are the best or Cain doing the same thing. Cadians got that way because of their victories. In fact there is nothing at all about the Imperium pushing the Cadians as the best anywere in the Codex. They earn their reputation because they are so good.

I think it's the same for the Cain and Gaunt and everyone else. Now, I'm not saying that Cadians aren't any good, I'm just saying that the only reason they're well known is because of their location. ~you know what they say: location location location I truly believe that there are other regiments throughout the Imperium that are better. I mean just because GW doesn't tell us about something doesn't mean it's not there...

And if as you say

QUOTE
they earn their reputation because they are so good.

then why don't you read about Krieg, or Gaunt or Cain or Vostroyans asking for their help all the time? ~I think I read about that in Newsweek one time.  Or was it Spiegel?  I mean if they're so great, you'd think that every piece of fluff out there would have some line about how the poor besieged DKoK just need one company of Cadians to break open the mighty citadel and win the war for them, instead they continue to live in the mud and fight a trench war... Sorry, I don't buy it. ~anyone still care about this? Nope, Ok, I'll keep going then...
*In real life the best unit I served with was the 82nd. ~in my sleep I'm a Viking

Gree- And just because GW does not tell us, does not mean they are there. GW never said that giant cheese monsters don't exist so they must be out there somewere. ~most delicious monster ever


If you are just going to make up hypothetical regiments then I can make up hypothetical feats for the Cadians. Obviously there would be individual regiments better than individual regiments of Cadians. (The Ghosts for example) but if you are just make up stuff that cannot be proven or disproven then I don't see the point in arguing with you. ~I heard that Creed can shoot fire from his eyes and lightning from his arse -oh yeah, well I heard he was 7 feet tall

Not quite sure what you are getting at. I never implied or said in any way that other regiments were incompetent or needed Cadian help. Don't put words in my mouth. I merely said they earn their reputation because they are so good. I said never said that others needed their help. ~I think all of you need help. For serious

Veteran Animal- Oh shut up the lot of you. Start acting like Guardsmen and get on with dying on the wire. ~early prediction, you'll win the fight. well, if anyone reads this far. if you've made it to this point please pat yourself on the back and step in line to receive 10 complimentary Internets from the Internet Chamber of Commerce



That's it for this week folks. But remember how I said that I figured out a way to drive site traffic? Well, set your Google alerts for stun because Mkerr, TastyTaste, BushidoRedPanda