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Tuesday, May 25, 2010

Answering some basic Elysian questions

Yesterday I posted my new Elysian list. A few of you had some comments that I wanted to get to, but felt like the responses would be a little longer than I could throw into the comments section.

So sit back, relax and prepare prepare for your only friend: the end.

It is of utmost importance that you have the following playing while you're reading this:

~Jane Fonda aint got a motor in the back of her Honda- I too am using IA8 as the motivation I need to finish my Elysians. A couple of comments, mostly based on IA3's list, which is what I am used to playing (my IA8 hasn't arrived yet). ~forget everything you know about the IA3 list, it's pretty much just the 4th edition codex with flying stuff. The IA8 is far superior and bears little resemblance to the old one.

1. Don't discount the effect that massed demo charges can have. I intend to model the IA2 list as much as I can, except where I can do better with IA8. ~demo charges are really cool, but for the 90 points I had spent on them, they didn't add much since I have plenty of anti-infantry and anti-tank already. They are all modeled onto my models, though, in case I have a change of heart at any point. Plus they look cool.

2. When you have Vendettas, do you really want to put so much anti-tank fire in things that only hit half of the time (i.e. Sentinels). In IA3, I always took the heavy bolter version of the Sentinel and they ended up supporting my troops fairly well. I don't know if the IA8 version gets the HB or not, but if it does, you just might think about that. They play havoc with FW's :D ~they do get the HB still for free. The multi melta is an upgrade. The reason I've gone melta even though I have some anti-tank elsewhere is a little on the complex side. I need my vets to stay alive to score. Since they can't shoot from their transport, they can only go after lower threat items like transports or things that can't completely go after them. Vendettas and Tauros don't put much hurt on things like Landraiders. They're great for AV 12 or 13 stuff, but can't be relied on to do much to AV14. Thus I need something with meltas that is cheap enough that I can throw it at anything that needs to die but not care if I have to trade units. Thus deep striking melta sentinels. Neither weapon choice really has the duality tat I normally like to see. The melta is a waste against most troops, but the HB doesn't threaten vehicles and isn't very impressive against most infantry either. En masse they could be exciting, but the HB doesn't do anything I need.

3. Hmm, no Vultures. Is that because of available models? When they were flyers in IA3, you could take things like armored cockpit and chaff launcher to give them some durability. Are those options still possible? ~totally agree and want to add vultures at some point. Hell that would use up some of my unused Heavy Support slots. Unfortunately I don't have the models yet and just spent most of my disposable income for the next couple months on some more basic essentials for my list. All Valkyrie based models (including the Vulture) only count as flyers in Apocalypse now. In regular games they are fast skimmers. Vultures can still get chaff and armor, though. One new addition to the vehicle is the ability to take TL Punisher cannons. Not sure if it's worth the price of an un-upgraded Tauros, but the kid in me does like rolling fist-fulls of dice. Any weapons loadout you've been successful with in the past? I've never used these or seen them in action.

4. Playtesting results aside, the rest of your stuff looks fairly solid. ~thanks, but I am worried about not having Chimerae to shoot out of. This is something that's going to be hard to work around. Also, the lack of autocannons is going to be tricky.

5. I got some of the dune buggies (both versions)as well, but I'm waiting to see how they do. I'm currently thinking I'll outfit them more for anti-personnel vs. anti-tank. ~as long as you don't expect them to survive the first couple of turns, you'll do just fine. The way I see the Venator, it is a suicide anti-tank unit. They're pretty cheap and should be able to take some shit down with them. The regular Tauros is all about anti-infantry. I don't know whether the GL or the Flamer would be better on these. My gut feeling is to go GL since getting a AV10 open topped dune buggy close enough to use a flamer might not be the most sound plan :)

I can hardly wait to take these guys for a spin.

The_King_Elessar said...

Do Venators get Autocannons? AC FTW. ~Marlon Brando facepalm FTW. Seriously dude, did you not read the part where I said it's almost impossible to stick Autocannons into the list? I'm actually enjoying not having the Autocannons a little bit. It gives me the opportunity to think differently and not just copy/paste all the autocannons I can into my army. For your reference the following can have autocannons (all are Heavy Support options)
  • Lightning- gets a single Long-barrelled autocannon costs a little more than a MRP Valkyrie. Not a good idea.
  • Thunderbolt- 2 TL autocannons and a TL Lascannon and some hellstrikes or hunter-killers. Not a horrible option, but about the same cost as a Leman Russ Demolisher with HB sponsons.
  • Vulture- probably the best place for them. They get a single TL autocannon and a HB and some missiles for around the same cost as a Valkyrie with no upgrades. Still not as efficient as HW squads or Hydras, but better than the other options by a long-shot.
Hope this answers some questions about how the new Elysian list works and my thoughts on it. More list feedback is totally welcome and appreciated. I'd still love to mash some Heavy support in there, but not sure what I'd cut out to do so. It probably have to be the Vendettas.


The_King_Elessar said...

Shush you. i asked, becasue I had been told they cpould, and so your comments confused me. Thanks for clearing it up. oh, and those are H-Ks? not a Multiple Missile Launcher as I was also told. Sigh. Need to carry more seasoning when listening to GW staff, I suppose.

The_King_Elessar said...

Ah! Horrid typos! *Cries*

Dethtron said...

Man Multiple Rock Pods would be awesome on the Venator, but sadly they just get pair of H-Ks as an upgrade. Not like they'll live to shoot more than once anyway lol

Roland Durendal said...

Man you're killing me smalls with all these tidbits.

1). I agree with going the MM Drop Sentinel route, and I actually use to run some as well back in IA3 in my normal, non-elite (Vet) Elysian Guard list. I also use to run 1-2 MRP Sentinels for pure LOL pie plate goodness.

2). My Elysian army was more of my campaign/theme army, so I used Vultures for what they were - close air support. As such I ran 2: 1 had the uber-rocket pod load out of 2 pairs of 2X MRP's (dropping 8X small pie plates in one shooting run was oh so much fun!) Can't really do it now, though 4 large pie plates is as good as 8 smaller ones I suppose. Is powerful? Hah not in the slightest(well it can be against T4 and below if you got a big mass of them. Is it fun/fluffy for an AirCav army? HELL YES!

The other Vulture was 2X MRP's and 2X bomb racks with 6 Heavy Smart Bombs. Again these weren't the most effective combos, but I loved me pie plate action and they are fun/fluffy.

I actually think I'm going to stick with that combo still, as I can move 12" and still fire everything off (yay for S4 MRP's!).

In all honesty, all other loadouts for a Vulture, the Vendetta or Valkyrie can do better. Why give your Vult 1X TLLC, when for a few points more you can get a Vend that has three times the firepower? Granted a single Vult puts out as much MRP dakka as 2X similarly armed Valks, but for around 40pts more AND you can't transport dudez.

As for Lightnings, I use to run 2 in larger (2500+) point games. I loved them. Give them 4X Hellstrikes and let them loose as a solid AT unit. IDK if the rules for how they shoot has changed, but back in the day they could move and fire ALL weapons, which is why they pwned armor out there. Firing a TLLC shot and a Hellstrike was almost guaranteed death to whatever it hit. The other setup I used was the Super Strike Fighter - load them up with Hellstrikes (6 total) and again let them loose on all the mech out there.

Nowadays though, in all honesty I don't know how Lightnings would fit in, or how they could be used. I looked at the old IA rules and the Apoc rules, but those are written for 4th ed, i.e. all pen hits against flyers are treated as glancing instead (akin to 4th ed skimmer rules). It could work I suppose, but would make fliers frickin' ridic to destroy. Alternatively we could just give them a 4+ cover save.

So now I must go acquire this IA8 and completely rebuild my old Elysian army. And now I want to start up a map campaign again.

Curse you Dethtron! I'm trying to build up my Space Pups and you lure me back to my old Guard roots, what with your little quips, and pictures of Marlon Brando, and scenes of Robert Duvall blowing shit up while Wagner plays in the background. Curse you I say!

Lauby said...

man, I need to get off my ass and finish up my Thunderbolt.