Friday Night Internet Fight: Round 32

Fucking blogger just ate nearly all of my fucking post and now I'm re-fucking doing the whole god damn fucking thing.  Hey blogger, thanks for wasting 2 hours of my fucking time you piece of shit.

Re-enter the wall of text.  This week's fight comes from Black Matt's blog, where he wrote a highly confusing article about the upcoming battle for salvation for no obvious reason.  Apparently it was supposed to be an extreme argument for comp, since -duh- not all codices are created equal.  I honestly didn't get that from reading the article, but Matt himself admits that he "lack(s) the literary prowess to communicate everything effectively."  True enough, because they only thing that I got out of this whole thing is that you're a fat cunt.

As always none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement.  I've edited everything into a flowing, coherent narrative, but left all shitty spelling and grammar intact.  I'll be snowmobiling in red.

Black Matt- Test ~what kind of a fucking jerkoff would leave something like this up on his own blog?

AbusePuppy- Why is list-building not a part of the competition? If you know you are bringing an inferior list, why do you not change it? ~allow me to answer your question with another series of questions.  Ineptitude?  Apathy?   Isn't that like saying "I know that Lashing his Terminators into me would only kill me faster, and I did it anyways and lost; therefore, the game wasn't fair

"?

Black Matt- list building is not apart of competition because Stelek is so good at what he does. I've built a razor wolves list for our tournament and I bought the models BEFORE I ever looked at the codex. I did it by googling stelek best of space wolves! ~between your post's contradictions and you continually contradicting yourself here, I'm confused as shit about what point, if any you're actually trying to make.  I've bought the codex since and have made minor changes to my list to fit my preferences but that right there is why list should not part be part of the competition. I left out a very specific example in my article about another club member. He has essentially copied one of stelek marine best of lists. He plays a gun line and everything in the game was in his favor. Except arsenals, and I quote him "if I can't win in this scenario, I can't beat this list." ~hooray for a flawed view of the game.  Given a little luck and a good player, any list CAN beat any other list.

AbusePuppy- So being good at things means they "don't count"? Jeez, don't tell Micheal Jordan, Leonardo da Vinci, Stephen Hawking, etc, about that, they're gonna be pissed.


Just because someone has an advantage over you in a competition does not make it not a competition. ~this is starting to remind me of that guy who was proposing changing the adepticon painting competition rules because he couldn't compete with professionals You could argue that the _level_ of competition is unfair (if, say, you or I were to play Jordan at basketball, most would consider it "not a competition" because he is a professional and absurdly above our skill level.) However, in 40K this just isn't the case- however much better Stelek may be, he's not a professional and hasn't dedicated his life to the game, nor can he compensate for luck-based factors enough to guarantee a win. ~a-fucking-men
Contrary to popular belief, just copying a list off the internet doesn't make it (or you) good. I'm still not sure I understand why you say "that right there is why list should not be part of the competition." ~Clearly because it's too hard, duh. Just like any other lists, Stelek's lists have weaknesses- though, in theory, less glaring ones, since he tends to be good at writing them. A good player can assess and focus on those weaknesses; a bad player will be unable to defend them. Skill in writing a list, skill in selecting a list to use; both of these are still important parts of the game ~you left out knowing how to use the list you've got, but I'll give you the rest for damn sure

Black Matt- @abusedpuppy ~ :)

When I say that he good at what be does, I mean everything. Not just writing the list, but publishing it. His site is very popular and people who are going to be in tournaments go to his site and get these monsters. I did, and I thought my last comment demonstrated that. My first game with the space wolves was in a 40 man tourney where I got 4th. I had never played the list/codex before. I bought it there that morning! ~a lot of what you just said makes me very sad.

Look, stelek really has nothing to do with this. ~precisely why you name dropped him like 40 times in your article then, eh?  Uneven lists are the object of question here. ~what we really need to be debating here are half-baked, self-contradictory, un-finished blog posts and my over-use of hyphens

SandWyrm- I'm not sure why you don't think list-building should be part of the competition of 40K. Or why you want to take a self-admittedly sub-par list to a high-level competitive game. It seems a bit self-righteous and whiny to me honestly. Like you want a way to save face if you lose. ~oh man, but if he wins it's on.  I took down a giant with a shite list, how awesome am I?

If I were playing Stelek~wasting someone's time like that borders on offensive  Even if I lost I'd know I hadn't held anything back. Plus I'd have his and others' respect. And... I might learn something too.

As to net-lists:

Sports teams of all kinds practice relentlessly and get the best gear they can to compete with. Golfers spend small fortunes on putters that give very small advantages where they need them. It's all a part of the larger game that happens off-field.

40K net-lists are analogous to a low-ranking (American) football team copying the playbook of the Colts, Saints, or Patriots. But without understanding and lots of practice those plays are nothing more than scribbles on paper. ~as you all well know, I don't give a shit about sports, but this is a pretty good analogy Without proper recruiting, they won't have the players that can pull them off. Without proper funding or facilities, the team can't function at all.  ~so you're saying that if I buy all of Tiger Woods' gear I won't  necessarily play like him.... all of my dreams of making it in pro golf are shattered.

And... It's a fun part of the game. Sports fans love to talk about trades, coaching, and stats all day long. I personally love kicking out army list variations when I'm bored, and helping others to make better lists themselves.

Enjoy it!

Black Matt- Guys,


This discussion/argument is not about the game, the game is about this discussion/argument.  ~that last quasi-profound statement is about not making sense I set it up to prove a point, ~that you suck? I know I can win as I have proven that with the battle report against autarch Andrew. ~thanks for the news flash Tom Brokaw.  This just in, winning 1 game against some random guys proves that you can beat anybody.  See below. The point is that it is highly unlikely that I will win. I wish some of you mathammer geeks would speak up. ~if we take the limit of you as it approaches suck we'll find that you go off on a random tangent and still don't make sense Especially stelek ~we all know how much he likes mathhammer, as he knows that the space wolves codex is stronger than the chaos codex. If I lose, I prove the point, or at least provide evidence in my favor.

@ sandwyrm

You seem like a dummy, and yes I spelled dumb that way so you could understand. It seems everything must spelled out for you. Did you even read the article?  ~I'm calling for a moratorium on accusing people of not reading posts.  All that ever happens is "of course I read it you dick"

Not all codexs are equal, I'm sure even your brain damage will let you grasp that one. ~where is this hostility coming from?  Therefore all lists on a tournament are not equal, giving pre-game advantage to those who can afford the latest and greatest. Will our hobby's tournament scene grow if all the newbies or bitter vets have only an astronomical chance of winning our tournament because they either can't afford 20+ tanks or they simply don't know their lists are sun par. ~will Matt stand a snowball's chance in hell of understanding what astronomical means?  "awhhh gee wilikers, I just got blown off the board so bad, I can't wait till next time!" Naive bullshit! Combine what's in the article and common sense and its all right there.  ~it is impossible to fail greater than losing and learning nothing from the experience. 

You say self righteous to me and I take that as a serious insult! I have spent almost 800 to present and prove this point, ~I know it sucks to hear you're wasting your money, but you're wasting your money and not because I dont believe it. I did it in order to bring about the idea of change. There will be no comprise between comp and no comp. It will divide our hobby tournament scene and we are not large enough to survive and grow that way. ~kind of sounds like you're trying to kill the hobby to keep it alive?  let me know how that goes

Now that's a self righteous statement, dickweed! But you pulled if out of me, I didn't offer anything of the sort. ~just wow.  fucking wow!

SandWyrm- LOL! That's funny. Is this where I'm supposed to call you a poo-poo head too?  ~he already broke the profanity barrier, is that the best you can do?  Couldn't even muster up a butt head?


I read your article, understood it, disagreed with it, and called you out on what I think is the real issue. Your own ego.

Every tourney player knows the Chaos codex has problems against all of the newer Codices. So do Eldar, Orks, and especially Daemonhunters. There are other codices (Tau, Witchunters, Dark Eldar) that do fine in competitive play, though only through mono-builds and in some cases only at specific point levels. It's a known problem that only GW can address. It is, just not very fast.  ~let's see how fast you can put out content if you keep firing your creative team. 

So what will falling on your sword accomplish?  ~a gaping gut wound If you honestly think that a Dual Lash list has a good chance against Stelek, then by all means go kick his ass. I'll root for you and laugh at him if you win. But, if you honestly believe your list to be impossibly inferior, why go to the trouble of setting up this game? ~to prove an obvious point, duh It's like playing football in high heels  ~now that I would watch.  Men or women playing, really. You can act like it's morally superior to be ground into the dirt, but the crowd will only point, laugh at you, and yell at you to grow up and try your best.

Kisses! ~I think that's how I'm going to end all posts from now on. Oh that and my name of course- otherwise how would you know who's posting?

Black Matt- Help me out with what "this type of behavior" is.

Do you mean presenting new ideas and let people debate the merits. ~so funny thing is usually in a debate both sides get to state their argument without somebody (ie you) flipping out and going all belligerent for no reason

You know nothing of the other members of my club. Your prejudices about something you know nothing about, my fellow club members preferences in play style, clearly demonstrates that the idiocies that dribble out of your mouth stain any intelligent conversation. ~well hey thanks for sharing something that had no point and only makes sense in the cramped space of your own fucking head.  Next time you type please make sure that EVERYONE or at least a majority of readers would have a clue what the hell you're writing about.

Keep your mouth shut and let the adults speak! ~oh boy, this is gonna get good, I can tell

SandWyrm- Whining about how events can't be competitive without identical lists. Wasting the time of quality players with self-admittedly bad lists; in order to "prove" what everyone else figured out about this flawed but fun game a couple of years before you had your wondrous epiphany.  ~el fucking oh el


There is no new information here. There is only your own self-made emo dramaz. Get over yourself.  ~methinks that will be something of a struggle

"Do you mean presenting new ideas and let people debate the merits."

Calling people names is not civilized debate. ~surely you've forgotten that name calling is a classic device for all famous orators.  Don't you remember when Lincoln called Douglas a pussy?

"Your prejudices about something you know nothing about, my fellow club members preferences in play style, clearly demonstrates that the idiocies that dribble out of your mouth stain any intelligent conversation."

Exhibit A. If you don't want us judging your opinions, don't post them on a blog. ~oh shit people can read this and react.  I better stop writt...

"Keep your mouth shut and let the adults speak!"

LOL! What are you, Twelve? Can you even drive yet without Mommy in the car? ~where can you get a learners permit at twelve.  I'm staying the fuck away from that place

Black Matt- But I don't want to get over myself, I like me. ~slow down Mr. Candy.  No Planes Trains and Automobiles soliloquy for you I think you like me too, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back for more punishment after a twelve year old made you look the fool! ~when did that happen?  ...and did you just admit to being twelve.  I take back what I've said previously.  You write remarkably well for your age.  When you mention mommy, that reminds me that I have your mom in the car and I got to go put that slut out on the street for the night. She better listen this time and get rid of any mistakes like you.
Lol, I've got this all day bitch! ~can it wait until tomorrow or perhaps the evening.  I grow tired of you

Mad yet? Maybe you could say something about my ego or age, cause those are CLASSICS by now I'm enjoying myself! ~self love is always the most gratifying Really, cause normally this stuff bothers me but I'm owning you. ~wait, what?

SandWyrm- "But I don't want to get over myself, I like me."


Oh, I bet you're liking yourself right now all over the family dog. How much bacon did that take again? You could offer him a whole steak, but he still won't lift his tail for your tiny dick.  ~ask Matt why he isn't allowed to buy peanut butter any more

"I think you like me too, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back for more punishment after a twelve year old made you look the fool!"

Ha! When was that again? I couldn't hear over the sound of the Internet laughing it's ass off at you.

"When you mention mommy, that reminds me that I have your mom in the car and I got to go put that slut out on the street for the night."

Sorry to break it to you dude, but that was your Tranny-Dad in a blue wig. But we can't expect a virgin to know what's supposed to be under the bicycle shorts now, can we? ~ouch.  A little below the belt, don't you think?

"She better listen this time and get rid of any mistakes like you.

(Sniff) Dad? Oh wait it's just some whiny kid who thinks he's actually clever.  ~you could have done better there.  Something about coat hangers was probably in order.

"Lol, I've got this all day bitch!"

Did you get that off of the TV? Who the fuck actually says stupid cliched shit like that? It's like you're not even trying.  ~sadly I have the feeling that he's giving this all he's got

"Mad yet?"

Why would I be mad? I'd have to be decently insulted first and you're fucking that up royally.

"I'm enjoying myself! Really, cause normally this stuff bothers me but I'm owning you."

Somebody call Deathtron! He has to see this! ~quick somebody call Sandworm and tell him how to spell Dethtron

Da Warboss- Sounds like you've already given up, Matt. Don't give Stelek any more creadance than any other bipolar chihuahua. They bark a lot, and say shit like 'where are the loudmouths' when most can't afford a ticket to NY.  ~wow, you write like an ork


Buy my ticket to NY and I'll play him 4 u :) I love shutting people like him up. ~let me know when you're done comparing dick sizes and being a hypocrite.  I'll be waiting in the car with the tranny

Black Matt- I've prettymuch blown my load on everything up to this point.  ~from what I've seen you blew it all over everything too I saved the profit from my last couple of paintingcommissions and payed for the ticket and the razor wolves army. Not much left, and it looks like theres not more than enough to pay for the next army to sell. Anyway, it looks like I am going to have to do it myself. No one in my club had the courage to stand up publicly now that stelek released the dogs. ~wait when did Stelek release the dogs?  Why do you keep talking about your club that nobody else knows or cares about?  How do your fellow club members put up with you (for starters) and you calling them chickenshit on the Internet?  I know several of them thought it was a great idea. The thing about his loudmouth dogs is that they are easily baitable.  ~your choice in made up words was quite debatable  They are predictable and stupid and unless stelek tells them what to say, ~I had to re-read this, because your constantly changing of thoughts, even within sentences, made me think you were just talking about your own gaming group, not zombyes.  they resort to hate. if you want an ass to kick his legs, slap it. Before this drama, there was no real grudge match, but now I'm in his head! If your gonna kill the king, do it so the w hole world can see. ~wait now you're trying to take down Stelek?  What the fuck is your problem dude. First you know you can't win and now you're getting inside your opponents head- get back in your own head and make up your mind about how you feel about at least one of the points you're failing at making please.

SandWyrm- For what it's worth I originally came in here because Number 6 over on Librariam Online said that your post was very interesting. ~that is a bold faced lie.  Everyone knows that 6 is far to busy sticking it to Rikimaru for any of this shit I found it flawed and responded. It was only later on that I saw Stelek had linked to you. ~it was only here that I realized that Stelek had linked to this.  I've been out of things this week, as you know If you've read his blog for any length of time you know that I call him out on his shit too. ~I think there's sufficient evidence suggesting that Matt is not a regular reader.  To which Matt will say "I totally read it all the time, dick head."  See how much statements like that prove.


Now, if you go back and look at my first post here you'll see that it was very matter-of-fact. ~I find almost nothing in there that is even borderline offensive, except the self-righteous bit Just because I don't sugar coat everything with preventive apologies to any possible imagined slight, doesn't mean that I meant to offend. That you chose to take offense to my criticism and start calling me names says a lot about the fragility of your ego. It's childish, regardless of how old you actually may be.

I suppose that you're used to people crumpling when you snarl at them. But you really need to grow up and learn to self-reflect instead. It's much more productive in the long run.  ~but I would argue that it's far less entertaining for the innocent bystander such as myself

GDMNW- Wow. There is some anger over here huh?  ~hey, since it appears that you are captain of team obvious, what do I need to do to join your club?

Anyway. On with the comment.

I am impressed that you have agreed to pay for Stelek to come and play a game against you. Kudos for that.

I think I can just about see where you are coming from when you say you want to use a supposedly underpowered codex too.

I do think you should do your absolute best with what you have though. I think that if you are going to use Chaos Space Marines you should do everything you can to beat him.

I guess I was not clear from the above that this was your plan...  ~it's murky at best.  Also he never implied he would try to win. 


It sounded almost like you are going to play to lose.  ~probably because he pretty explicitly said as much Or not take the absolute best CSM list you can build. Which would strike me as odd. 

Finally.  ~erase period add comma lower case v Vitriol always comes over  ~across better when it is spelt ~spelled and punctuated properly.~ erase period add comma lower case e Especially when you are demeaning the intelligence of another individual or group. Pro Tip. ~sentence fragment

Black Matt- I will do everything I can to win. But if I had to bet, I would wager on space wlves. They are nasty.  ~then you should be used to that.  What with your tranny dad and all...

As far as the hate, these ytth numb nuts brought it over here. ~oh shit, I forgot that when you started the name calling and e-bitch fest that it was all ZombYes faults.   Learn to chronology  None of their criticisms or yours bothered discussing the article. ~except when they did.  What they didn't discuss was the article that you seem to think you wrote.  Well either way, both articles are shit Why or why not a tournament of even rosters would work. ~probably because that's they dumbest, most boring idea ever and totally destroys the spirit of choice and ingeniuety in the game They attacked, and I defended making them look stupid. ~revision:  They offered valid criticism, forcing me to make as ass out of myself by attacking them needlessly.  Seriously, you're even attacking GDmnW or KMFDM or CHDDA or whatever his name is, who happens to be on your side.  He's giving you advice for your game and you're shitting on him for no reason.  Granted the last bit about grammar was neither warranted or amusing, but still, come on...

Finally.

Would this be better supported with a comma and a statement. It looks like a incomplete sentence but your the educated one. I'll trust you and thanks for the tip, pro! ~please stop trying to be clever.  It's painfully obvious that you aren't

SandWyrm- 40K is not Go, Chess, or Checkers. It's closest analog is Poker or MTG. Except that those games have much less luck variation than 40K does because they don't use dice. ~ummm, last I checked cards were all about luck and probability too.  At least as much, if not more so, than 40k.  But they're similar in that the player can use various strategies to mitigate the effects of bad luck.


So, your idea of a standardized tourney fails for a variety of obvious reasons, but I'll rattle off a few.

1) Nobody but a tiny minority of players would want to play the exact same army/list in a tourney. Some people just don't like Guard, Orks, Marines or whatever at all. ~not to mention the resentment players would feel about being forced to buy everything necessary to make your one list to rule them all

2) So you'd have to somehow come up with exactly equivalent lists for every codex. Good luck with that. It can't be done.  ~I think I'll need you to fly me out to Indiana to prove this.  Yes I could drive, but flying is fun.  We'll set up a game where all dice rolls are determined by using statistical expected values.  No dice will be used, to eliminate luck from the equation.  The game will be played on a bare floor with no terrain.  Painted models will not be allowed, because that's too distracting.  Movement will be carried out by a single neutral 3rd party arbiter for both sides, reducing the probability for error on the players part.  Models will be physically moved by another arbiter, so that no cheating an occur.  A web conference will then be set up and a panel of Zombyes will vote on all target priority decisions.  To further eliminate distractions, all players and bystanders will wear noise cancelling headsets and wear only a plain white frock.  All in game communication must be typed, copied in triplicate for record keeping, passed to an editor for proofing, and approved by a council  to be appointed by the target priority council.  If I left any other restrictions out, please let me know

3) Are you going to provide models for everyone to use? I can't bring my Mech Guard if you standardize on a platoon-based list for IG. Or my Sanguinary Guard list if BA have to do a Razor/Pred rush.

 success would mean that you'd end up with a game that uses 40K models, but which isn't actually 40K at all. So why go there? What's the point? ~well if you're absolutely dying to have a terrible time....

'Go' is the game you want, not 40K. It's got strategy, a formal ranking system with set handicaps for games between unequal players, and it's utterly deterministic. Something that 40K will never, ever, be.

And then, you claim you can prove the viability of this mental masturbation by paying $$$ to throw a game with Stelek? Where losing with a bad list will somehow magically prove your point? ~he's using that new scientific method.  You know, the one where you skew the results that you get to prove your hypothesis no matter what.  Or take something that's already an established fact and prove it for no reason.  Perhaps you'll like for forthcoming paper on the effects of hitting an egg with a hammer.  Will it break?  Stay tuned for my findings. 

What point? That 40K isn't deterministic or perfectly balanced? We all know that already. Dur!

So all that's left is what can be discussed. Your desire to throw a game with Stelek for no real point.

Da Warboss- On a side note, if it's WYSIWUG, I swear some people in this hobby must be mortgaging their homes for some of the army lists I see. I looked at Stelek's 10 TWC + lord + the rest...E-Bay is your friend...but not that good a friend. Must be lack of a family/girl friend that lets you minis mizers get away with it.... ~oh I forgot that all of us are poor and have no social lives.  I wonder what my girlfriend thinks of my basement full of minis.