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Friday, October 29, 2010

Friday Night Internet Fight: Round 35

This week MagicJuggler was kind enough to e-mail me about a fight he was involved in over at 40kOnline.  Being the painful read that it was, I knew I had to use it for this week's FNIF.  The thread is called Tarrins Take What You Want (TTWYW) thread: 1K Sons and it will make your eyes want to crawl under a how shower for hours on end trying to wash of the foul stench of the raping they have received.  The highlight of this thread for me is that the OP is not only completely belligerent and ignorant, but also is blind to when people are contributing to his discussion productively.

As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement- and with a spooky Halloween theme, no less.  Portions of this contest not reflecting the shows outcome have been edited out for run time.  I'll offer my all-knowing commentary and omniscient narration in characteristic red snowmobiling.

Tarrin- There is nothing nicer than turning up to a tournament and seeing something else on the table other than the usual suspects. ~oh sweet, this is going to be an article from the perspective of the seal clubber, right?  Right?  Guys....? Every codex has a wide range of entries yet you often see the same units on show again and again. I imagine that, like me you get exceptionally bored of reading “Ard Boyz” lists which are themed on the same spammed tank, or set combo that is a game breaker. ~fuck, it's going to be that kind of post...  YAWN! ~personally I find the spamming of this same line of thought everywhere even more boring.

Well this thread seeks to redress the balance.~slow down there Atlas, don't you think you're biting off a bit more than you can chew with that?  Single-handedly Tarrin will bring peace and balance back to 40k.

I will almost guarantee that we all have minis that sit on the shelf, gathering dust. Minis that we have paid good money for but just aren’t “flavour of the month”.  ~I can completely guarantee that you are a dickhead and I place no value in any of your opinions.

It is true that some units point for point are better than others, or that some units do have rules that make them hard to use, however I am a great believer ~and I'm a day dream believer, so why don't you cheer up sleepy Jean that ALL units have their place on the table, ~a models place on the table- wherever you put it down and that you can take any unit and wield it effectively even under tournament conditions. ~I'm a firm believer that you're full of shit, on drugs, have a learning disability, or some combination of the latter For me personally, part of the fun of playing 40k is beating someone with an army that, on paper, should never be used.  ~oh maybe this is about seal clubbing.  Clearly beating up a good army with a shit army means you're playing sub-optimal opponents.  Or there's cheating involved. To take a sub-optimal unit and ram it down someone’s throat when they least expect it. ~To start sentences with prepositions

So I will set you a challenge. ~I accept.  Pistols at dawn.  Prepositions at the beginnings of sentences.  Sword and Buckler.  Sentence fragments.

1: Read the discussion on the unit selected in this thread.
2: Contribute your own views on how they can be used effectively.
And here is the novel bit.  ~oh thanks, I wouldn't have noticed how insanely deep you are without this
3: Volunteer to take the unit to your next game, or even better tournament, and use them, using the suggestions of the community.
4: Report back.  ~5.  go fuck yourself

Rules: ~wait, 1, 2, 3, 4, and (5) weren't the rules.  You sure are making a lot of demands.

I: Be sensible: Any posts of the nature “don’t bother with this unit, take X, Y is a better choice, will be frowned upon. ~oh no, anything but that  This is a discussion on that particular unit.
II: Be brave: it’s only a game, and don’t be afraid of rebelling against the accepted rules of 40k society.  ~ahhh I remember when I was a teenager and felt ways about stuff, too.  Seriously, I was at school yesterday and there was some group of punk rock undergrads and hipsters that were holding some kind of rally about some shit and I thought 'oh how cute, they think they give a shit about something.'
III: Be honest: Actual reports are better than falsifications.  ~awww nuts
WAAAHHH! The chaos codex is rubbish? ~yes It has ruined the fluff and the lists are bland. My precious 1K sons aren't viable. ~pretty much


Seriously? I see all over the boards that thousand sons - pure tzeentch list - is not viable? ~probably because it's not But i seriously disagree with this. ~then we can agree that you're retarded Great guns, Inv saves, Cheap transports, Psykers abound, awesome hats. ~ok, I'll give you that last one :), but seriously- wrapping this up any time soon?

I go to tournies and i see the usual bland lists and in that rare occasion something magical turns up. Why don't i see it more? ~because guaranteed loss = lame.  Oh and the fact that you're generalizing things and don't recognize the amount of subtle changes amongst the net lists that you seem to know so much about I think they are tough, flexible and dangerous. Add in a couple daemonically possesed HS units, a sorceror or even the main man Ahriman and you have a lethal force that can hold it with the big and best.

Discuss! ~what's to discuss, you're an idiot.  If I were to say anything to contradict what you already believe, I'm already wrong.

Chuckles- Their guns are pretty good, except that they are also easy to neutralise by the simple virtue of getting into cover. ~so they're good except when they're not?

The obvious way around this problem then is to field them with a Slaaneshi Sorceror or Daemon Prince with Lash of Submission. ~ I think you just broke rule 2/b-12.345/z-69 of this non-contest I don't think you could viably base an entire army around Ksons, but I'd say it's possible to find a use for them in a mixed list.  ~facepalm

Tarrin- Hence the thread. I think it is possible.  ~THIS is how you support your argument?  The fuck is wrong with you?

~and the winner for longest, most obnoxious screen name ever....... Vanity Killer have Deff Dred, will WAAAGH- ~in more positive news, it looks like I just found a name for my future race horse.  It is, but K-Sons require finesse. ~sounds like you're setting up for a laundry list of excuses as to why you lose a game with all 1ksons You don't get that many guys on the field at one time.  Ever.  Plus some stuff doesn't make sense to add to the army, because they wouldn't have it there in the first place.  Things like Possessed, Bikes, hell even Defilers, probably wouldn't actually show up in a true Thousand Sons army.  However you could have some Chosen, that are the psykers who didn't get turned to dustbuckets, but also were burned out by the Rubric, or some other random madness like that.  ~I'm honestly trying, but still can't bring myself to give a shit about anything you have to say.  Seriously, I'd love to make fun of you more, but it just seems like it's not worth it.  Also if you play them with Ahriman, since he is so against mutation, Daemons, things like that, Daemon Princes are out of the question as well.  At that point you have Sorcerer Lords and Ahriman.  When playing them on the table top, you have to anticipate your opponents moves ahead of time, and be ready to shred him with bolter fire.

MagicJuggler- There are two problems with the Rubric Marines:

-Cost: At minimum points, 4 Sons and a Sorcerer are costly. How costly? About 2 more points than a Grey Hunter squad with Flamer and Lascannon/Plasmagun Razorback. Yikes! This is before buying a mandatory power for your Sorcerer. ~ouch, that is a shitload of points

-Poor at their intended role: It's an anti-infantry unit meant to walk into the open while happily blasting Foot Marine Gunlines to pieces. The problem with its AP 3 and 4++ are the fact that in 40k, it's rather simple to pratfall into a cover save, and this assumes people are still running static foot marine gunlines (Space Wolves can do a foot gunline, but it's semi-mobile). Yes the Sorcerer can get Bolt but we're talking Dark Reaper Exarch levels of expensive ~using a shitty unit in an argument against somebody who appears to love shitty units is probably not the best way to approach this...AP 1 is nice though and this is actually one of the few move-and-fire At weapons that Chaos gets. This actually goes into how we use these poor unfortunate souls.

-Poor ability to saturate enemy firepower: ~problem 3 of 2?  A 4+ invulnerable save is nice for advancing into the open against Lascannons, Plasmaguns, or other low-AP shots. The problem? Those shots aren't meant to go into Thousand Sons; Rhinos and Obliterators are more attractive targets for these weapons;  ~unless you are playing against someone who is, like Tarrin, clearly a fucking idiot and doesn't want any of those things you mentioned.  It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy- if I don't take good targets to shoot meltas at, then my 1ksons will be awesome at absorbing those melta shots. what *does* kill Thousand sons ironically, is torrent-capable weapons. Bolters, devourers, massed Shuriken Cannons, Grotzookas...this has to be overcome.

So what can we do to make things them useful, if at least semi-competitively? We're not buying them for the AP 3 as this is an ability that is based on the assumption you can pull your opponent's non-expendable elements out of cover; this is a bonus that is nice to have but not good to plan around.  ~phhh, I totally build armies around AP all the time  Here's how I would run them:

-Take a pair of Thousand Sons at minimum strength, and in Rhinos. The Sorcerers have Bolt of Change. It's nowhere near point-efficient at all, costing about the same as a full-strength Tactical Marine Squad w/ Combiflamer Sergeant and Rhino. This said, it can still move 6", and fire Bolt from the top hatch (by contrast, the Marine Multimelta has to remain static). Their Rhino should take a Combi-flamer to discourage moving too close to the unit. It's not a Chimera but it *should* do in a pinch. In midgame when most the vehicles are smoldering wrecks or functionally useless, they can consider disembarking into the open, using the speed of their Rhino to find a firing position to negate cover... ~hey, no fair playing by the non-contest rules

-If you want additional troops, regular Marines do the job fair enough. They do Know Fear, so be careful with them. Keep them in their metal boxes, ready to provide scoring and general support as needed. Alternately, small squads of Khorne Berserkers with Combi-Melta Rhinos can help midfield somewhat.
  ~that's more like it.  Blow the rules off his fucking thread.  Fluff be damned
-Better find a reliable pair or trio of Meltagun units in order to help keep heavy armor honest. Chosen or Plague Marines are the two options of choice. Plagues ~lol, keep digging that hole also score, so using them as suicidal troops isn't optimal in most cases; Chosen are cheaper for the role, can get a better mix of specials (3x Melta/2x Flamer still costs less than 2 Plague Marine Meltaguns), and the honest truth is what else in the Elite slot would one honestly take? A minor bonus is that since Chosen infiltrate, it's worth suiciding a single unit forward to hem in enemy Scouts (a notorious example being an Imperial Gunship loaded with Demolition Veterans).

-Bring Predators instead of Obliterators. ~oh man, I've read ahead a bit and know that there's all kinds of blah cookie cutter nyahhhh bullshit ahead.  Then I read this knowing that and seriously just shot diet coke through my nose.  When was the last time you saw somebody lobbying for Predators in a Chaos list? Seriously. The Heavy Bolter Sponsons are overcosted, but the Lascannon sponsons are a go. You're usually using Heavy Support to deal with AV 10-11 where autocannons are more effective anyway. By taking 3 Lascannon/Autocannon/Havoc Predators over the standard a Obliterators, you're freeing up a good 200 points while increasing your resilience to mass Lascannons; park some Rhinos in front and they can happily fire unmolested, enjoying a 4+ or 3+ cover save.

-Avoid a Prince. They're big targets. This said, considering the list is going to be weak in assault, you'll can consider a Greater Daemon for interdiction. ~you'll can make another suggestion that is outside of the box, non-cookie cutter Besides that, a Warptime Sorcerer (either bike-mounted, or on a Slaaneshi steed) is reliable for soloing small squads; remember that Warptime lets you reroll successful rolls, so you can reliably break the enemy on their turn. The reason for either of these choices over a prince is both are small enough to hide behind your vehicles. Honestly though, assault is not a grave concern if you bring enough vehicles.

In conclusion, the Thousand Sons are a mobile Multimelta without penetration dice. A very expensive one, that taking more than 2 such units will seriously eat into the rest of your army, but you're Chaos. You are fighting with an arm tied behind your back anyway...Good luck. You'll probably need it.
Tarrin- Of course MajicJuggler you read the brief about taking only tzeentch stuff and this been a thread on this.  ~of course you read all of the options he listed that would fit in the paradigm of your stupid ass non-contest

Therefore please keep the discussion on 1ksons and tzeentch. not additions of khorne, slaanesh or nurgle.

Thank you ~eat a bag of dicks you smug prick!

MagicJuggler- I read it. I find a pure list has no place in a non-comped tournament (and comp is a cancer killing 40k). ~shit tell us how you really feel about comp It's the equivalent of showing up to a cooking contest with only a spatula. ~omellettes for everyone!
Vanity Killer have Deff Dred, will WAAAGH- Perhaps you should remember that it isn't always about tournaments, and not every tournament is competitive.  ~oh I love those non-competitive competitive events?  Huh?  I've used an all Tzeentch CSM army, and was awarded best composition in a hobby tournament.  ~would you like a cookie?  So instead of thinking 'Ard Boyz, think fun.  ~instead of assuming you know what is fun for everyone, try shutting the fuck up
MagicJuggler-  This is a poor excuse. Tarrin specifically states that "I am a firm believer that ALL units have their place on the table, and that you can take any unit and wield it effectively under tournament conditions." Hence, the use of Thousand Sons in tournament settings. Of course, he doesn't explain whether he's advocating a comped tournament, a hobby tournament, a battlepoint tournament, or a swiss-system pairing tournament. ~yeah, I think the implication or question that Tarrin meant to ask was 'can you build a good 1ksons army?'  Otherwise I could build shitty ones all day long.  Here try this: sorcerer (mark of tzeentch, winds of chaos, gift of chaos, plasma pistol, familiar) 6x Thousand suns units (aspiring sorcerer- winds of chaos 5 thousand suns w/ personal icon)- 1,500 points.  Is that shitty enough to win your shittiest list ever contest Tarrin?  Being a guy who believes the best way to do well in a tournament is to have a take-all-comers army that has been practiced with until you have an intricate playbook of deployment and movement orders, I'm going to assume a tournament like the NoVa Open or Battle for Salvation; no comp, a single tournament champion (and a separate Renaissance Man for fluff-lovers), and Swiss pairing.  ~I think you're assuming to much.  Or at least too specifically

Can a pure 1k list reliably deal with tournament-quality Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, heck even Eldar or Orks? That is the question I ask first. And the answer is no, barring abnormal scenarios, loaded dice, or extreme incompetence on the part of one's opponents.

So I argue for whether to use thousand sons as a smaller part of a larger whole,for sake of this thread.
Tarrin- This thread is on 1ksons only, not mixed lists. This is made very clear  ~and juggler gave you fluffy options, you're just blinded by your own idiocy.

The purpose of this thread, similar to the other TTWYW threads is to explore the use of these underused forces/units in a game/tourney situation. That means any tourney situation.

It is to discuss how such a force maybe used to its best potential, how it maybe used to match the so called power builds and other lists. ~yeah, I think non-denominational options like possessed and predators and shit like that clearly contradict your goal with this thread you fucking ass hat

The aim of these threads is to expand peoples vision beyond the tupenny shuffle that tournaments such as the NoVa open and its ilk produce. ~expand your vision by narrowing your mind In fact it is the kind of attitude that you bring here that we wish to combat with this.

If you want to contribute to these threads then i suggest you try to think how these units/forces could be used effectively against lists such as you give there, rather than poo poo the whole idea.  ~when did he poo poo the whole idea- was it when he was discussing list building options and contributing to your stupid ass goal? I hope that this is not beyond your limited scope and tactical knowledge. ~well if I didn't know it earlier, I now know that you are a narrow minded piece of shit who shouldn't be allowed near a forum

Put it this way. Consider it a challenge. Try to think laterally, and what you would do if you were to take a 1k list to a high powered tourney. ~so do what he already did and you seem to be ignoring.  Great!  How would you cope? ~crying in a corner?  Lamenting making a terrible decision?  What style tactics and tzeentch builds would you take to make a solid force and how would you play it. ~since you are blind here is the Tzeentch build he would use (and still probably not do well with)- sorcerer, 2x Thousand sons, maybe regular chaos marines, maybe chosen, 3x Predators

40k is not about turning up with an "insert netlist of the month" force and hoping you get first turn, as many people think it is.

If it is beyond your ability then i suggest you refrain from posting in them as anything you post will be against the very idea of this thread, and you will only get in the way of sensible discussion. ~go directly to hell.  Do not pass go, do not continue breathing.

MagicJuggler- Sensible disussion. So you've:

-Insulted several tournaments, the tournament-goers, and the organizers. Congratulations on dismissing an event single-handedly as a pile of rubbish. ~ :)

-Thrown passive-aggressive whining about what is sensible vs nonsensible discussion, about using units laterally vs copy-pasting a netlist. Disregarding that 90% of netlists are and were absolute crap when they were first written, this disregards that certain armies were built for certain roles. The Blood Angel codex specifically gives guidelines for doing a mechanized list, or a descending horde of Jump Pack Infantry. The Tyranid Codex specifically advises the use of large monsters for eliminating vehicles and other hard targets in support of the smaller anti-infantry elements. Building a strong list isn't netlisting or being WAAC; it's understanding how your army works.  ~I know I haven't said much here, but it's hard to knock somebody you think is right off their soap box  Likewise, simplifying the game as a case of "who goes first" disregards elements like proper application of reserves, or deployment to deny an alphastrike.

-Using "all" tournaments as the baseline to say "all units have a place on the table", frankly makes any unit discussion pointless, especially regarding tournaments where taking certain units results in artifical comp penalties (I have a friend who went to Da Boyz primer, won every game he was in, and got 6/100 comp), or certain units are outright banned (No Special Characters is a popular one. It doesn't matter if said character is Ahriman or Logan).  ~it always strikes me as funny that this type of comp makes the DA almost unplayable, rather than better

So then, let's be sensible. If I'm of a limited scope and tactical ability, let us assume 1500 points, and you're running a pure Tzeentch list. This means nothing without a Mark (or Transports). Aside from you is an Eldar list (not intended as a specific example, but the type of list you might encounter at an unrestricted tournament) including:

-Farseer w/ Runes of Warding, Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Doom, Guide
-2 units of 5 Fire Dragons, in 2 Serpents w/ TL Scatter Laser/underslung Shuriken Cannon
-3 Dire Avenger units in Serpents, w/ TL Scatter Laser/underslung Shuriken Cannon
-3 Vypers w/ Scatter Laser & Shuriken Cannon
-3 War Walkers w/ 2 Scatter Lasers apiece.  ~lol, haven't seen those in a competitive list in ever.  There you go copying net lists again you fucking bastard

The list operates by an oblique deployment, Serpents in the front to generate cover for the Walkers behind.

What all-comer list would you use to have a reliable chance of winning against this, not making any assumptions about missions? (Either a KP Mission, or an objective mission). There are no external factors be it sportsmanship or army comp to determine who wins. Feel free to assume anywhere between 25-40% of the map is covered in terrain if you want. ~continuing Tarrin's trend of ignoring sound logic, I'm pretty sure this question is not answered.

WisdomLS- I like taking a powerful list as much as the next guy and lets face it we all enjoy winning but...

I also like friendly and interesting discussions about units that are infrequently used and frequently under valued.

That is what these series of threads are about, it stats in the OP that this thread is about talking up the unit, working out good uses for it and seeing where it can be used effectively.  ~MAGIC JUGGLER DID THIS YOU GOD DAMN FUCKING CLOWNS!  Why is that so hard to see?

We all know that the units that are chosen for these threads are limited and possibly not cost effective, thats the point!

If you want to post about the best unit builds for a competetive tournament then this is perhaps not the best thread to do it in  ~last fucking time I'm saying this- OP asked people to contribute good 1ksons lists.  This implies that he wanted them to not suck.  Beyond this it gives no frame of reference.  I'm not sure that a frame of reference really even matters, though.  Whether in your basement, at a FLGS, or at a tourney, creating a list that is good and at least works should be your goal.  Theoryhammering your list against things you are likely to face is a good idea

The discussion goes on for 2 more pages after a brief lag in anything being amusing.  You can check it out, as there is some more fighting midway through page 2, but I honestly can't bring myself to give more lip service to these dickheads.  If I see one more rawr netlists R suxor argument I am going to put my fist through my laptop screen.  Being short on funds to replace said laptop, I think it's best if I bow out now.


Anonymous said...

I <3 you Dethtron

MagicJuggler said...

Here's the funny thing. I was banned from that thread on page 2. It just kept getting worse.

Dave G _ Nplusplus said...

The OP obviously had a decent idea by trying to argue that you can make fun lists out of any unit...
Then he failed miserably by trying to apply his idea to tournaments and being an idiot in his attempts at argument.

Dethtron said...

Can't believe this didn't dawn on me until now, but isn't forcing Tzeentch on players just as (if not more) cookie-cutter as spamming any other unit...

Gx1080 said...

Love the avatars, BTW. Though you leaved out the good stuff :(

The Antipope said...

I think this time everybody loses. Especially MagicJuggler who lost all that time and energy trying to explain a few basic stuff to a bunch of malakas.
Dethron, this is hilarious as always but I am kind of disappointed you didn't include Lorizaels posts.One moment he is asking for the thread to stay nice and friendly and then he is calling MagicJugglers list cookie cutter. Are the moderators in that forum supposed to aggravate people? And his definition of cookie cutter is "using multiple identical squads". Is all this in a different internets? Anyway my vote goes to "Vanity Killer have Deff Dred, will WAAAGH" just for the unnecessary name.

MagicJuggler said...

I'm a hopeless optimist? At the least, this little fight was entertaining if only to see (presumably) married men nerdraging about how pretending to play competitively makes you a cheesy WAAC bastard...when an effective list was what Tarrin was supposedly asking for in the first place.

The Antipope said...

I admire your optimism sir. I am a man of much weaker resolve, I would never have tried something like that.

Von said...

@ Dethtron - yes, yes it is. Funny how 'fluff' tends to involve spamming the hell out of two or three units which are acceptable elements of your list based on the criteria you've set yourself, while 'spam netlist WAAC! WAAC!' involves... hang on. I think I've written this sentence the wrong way round...

DaveHowitzer said...

Why don't some people just like...grow a set of balls...and a brain...and a fucking personality. Magic - good on you sir being the only sensible person on this thread it seems.

Grand find guys. Makes me want to get my torch and pitchfork.

Zheilt said...

I love how in these types of threads the original topic post becomes completely obsolete once the fighting starts. He asks about 1k sons in a competitive list, but then everyone goes all crazy when MagicJ says they aren't good.

It always makes me wonder what these people actually think. I mean, do they really think they're right? Or is there some tiny voice in their head telling them maybe they need to calm down.

Brent said...

What I loved was Tarrin's posture of superiority.

Here he is, throwing down the challenge that he himself hasn't answered. Like we were supposed to assume he would know the magic advice that would make Thousand Sons work.

When they so obviously don't right now.

Sir Biscuit said...

Haha, looks like Kirby showed up on Page 3 as well and got deleted. People don't much like good advice.

WidthofACircle said...

Totally unrelated, but I emailed you about this ages ago.



The_King_Elessar said...

Stupid ppl r stoopid. As ever. :(