Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 26

This week's fight was brought to my attention by stormy.  I'm glad he e-mailed it to me, because with setting up the House of Paincakes and needing to look for a FNIF: Extra Innings fight as well, I've been pretty busy.  Add to that needing to find textbooks, get shot down for a job I was feeling good about, and my step mom's partial paralysis at the hands of spinal inflammation (she's getting better after steroid treatments), and it's been a busy week or so.

What we have before us is a fight from Bolter and Chainsword about Fenrisian Wolves, Rune Priest, TWC, and more-Oh my!  I've got to say that I'm glad I pulled all the quotes last night, as it looks like B&C is down or maintenance at the moment.  Keeping with the recent trend of falsely identifying playing within the rules as cheating, this fight contains many many baseless accusations of "cheating."

As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement.  Be sure to vote on the winner in this week's poll, and enjoy the snowmobiling.

PagingMrHerman- I run a unit of Fenrisian Wolves ~then you better go catch 'em who have a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf mount attached to it. I'm worried about playing IG with Psyker Battle Squads and being pushed back every turn. My potential solution (if it's legal) is I will attach my Wolf Priest to the unit for the first turn or two until the unit gets close enough to do their 12” assault, in which case the Wolf Priest would leave the unit in the movement phase prior to the assault. This wouldn't prevent the reduction of leadership, but it would make them fearless, so they wouldn't be failing pinning and morale checks. ~ooh you tricky bastard

Here's the question - can the Wolf Priest join the Fenrisian Wolves unit along with the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount? The codex states that a character with a Thunderwolf mount may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves. Does the Wolf Priest joining the unit make the unit not comprised of Fenrisian Wolves?

Thanks in advance!
 

Lord Clinto- Is it possible to attach a WP to the unit? The Thunderwolf wargear option states that the model can only be attached to TWC or Fen wolf units for some reason. Would this disallow other models from joining the unit unless they were on a TWM? ~Is it possible to reword the OP's question in your post?  Yes, apparently it is.

PagingMrHerman- That's the big question: does a Fenrisian Wolf unit joined by a Wolf Priest no longer make the unit Fenrisian Wolves for the sake of determining whether or not a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord can join it? ~3rd time's a charm, maybe somebody will bite this time, or maybe this is devolve into a fight....who knows...

Karack- I would figure that under RAW this is a loophole at best, and the writing tends to support it not being allowed; whereas RAI would seem to inform me that, No, we may not. ~Well Karack, your copious amounts of examples and citations have won me over to your side.  Thanks for that.

stinkenheim- For me its a no. ~You know nnnutzinggg!

Fred Johnson the...- ~Hello I am Fred Johnson and....  And what?  Trevor!!! Oh shit, this isn't a Strong Bad e-mail What's with all these "I'd say this" "I'd say that." ~well I'd say that they're expressing their opinions


Shouldn't the rules be clear on this? ~in a perfect world, yes 

Valerian- Take it easy Fred; no reason to get all bent out of shape over a simple rules discussion. ~If there's one thing the Internet has taught me it's that rules discussions are never simple, it's every reason to get bent out of shape, and that was actually two things the Internet has taught me
 
we should hope that the rules would be clear on every issue that comes up in the game, but they often are not. That is why sometimes it simply comes down to personal interpretations and even opinions. What we hope to do here in The Fang, is lay it all out in a rational discussion and at least try to come to a concensus. ~well good luck with that then
 

Fred Johnson the...- Are there any units an 'infantry' IC cannot join, in general? If the answer is no, or at least if he can join beasts or cavalry or whatever, then why the hell couldn't the OP's plan work? The unit doesn't magically become another unit because an IC joins. We already know that multiple IC's can join a unit. Therefore it should be fine.  ~in spite of being kind of a dick, your argument is pretty solid

Now if someone wants to spend more effort then me, and post actual rules, that'd be cool. But poo-pooing it based on nothing ain't the way to go. ~so how is supporting it based on nothing going for you?  Looking in the SW codex might have actually gotten you somewhere  Just because you don't like it is not a reason to claim it is against the rules.
But as a new player, I am utterly shocked at how many people seem to not know IC rules. ~well when you become a veteran player this will cease to shock you.

Valerian- "In general' an Independent Character can join any non-vehicle unit, regardless of what the Independent Character's unit type is, (i.e. infantry, biker, jump infantry, cavalry) based on wargear upgrades, and regardless of what the unit type of the unit he is joining is. In general, there are no constraints on this, with the only restriction being that the new "group" (e.g. unit plus attached IC) must move at the rate of the slowest member. So, if the IC and unit aren't of exactly the same unit type, there are often mobility restrictions - which makes them less effective than they would otherwise be.  ~big problem with the plan #2:  in addition to possibly being illegal, it slows down a cavalry unit.  woo hoo

The issue in this case is that the Thunderwolf Mount wargear for an IC places a restriction on him that he can only join a unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves. So far, so good, as the OP is trying to join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves with his Wolf Lord, which is allowed. He is also planning on joining his Wolf Priest (an infantry model with no Thunderwolf Mount) to the Fenrisian Wolves, which is also allowed (no restriction on joining his infantry IC to a unit of Beasts, and no restriction on joining multiple ICs to the same unit).  ~so you just rebutted what you're undoubtedly about to say.  Interesting debate tactics.  I'm dying to see how this strategy shakes out.

Now, here comes the part where some folks might have a differing opinion, which is why you are seeing some, "I'd say this", and "I'd say that". One way to look at it is that the Wolf Lord with Mount can join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves, which is what the unit is, so everything is okay. Another way to look at it is that the unit is no longer just a unit of Fenrisian Wolves, but has now become a unit of Fenrisian Wolves plus this other guy on foot ~precedent for ICs changing unit type?  No.  Well dead issue, you'll be receiving a cease and dessist letter from my rules lawyer shortly.  (who happens to also be a unit, albeit a unit of one), so now it is not okay. It's all a matter of perspective. ~unless your perspective is wrong

As for me, I wouldn't have a problem with it, although I think it is kind of a waste of use for your Wolf Priest and you could just avoid the debate entirely by sticking him in another unit that he is actually going to stay with and augment in close combat.  ~Holy fuck folks, this debate just got real.  He's employing a new tactic, rebutting himself again.  I'm on the edge of my seat.

I would say that most of the folks who have responded to this thread so far actually know the Independent Character rules pretty well. They have played enough games to understand that there are often subtle nuances in what is and what is not allowed.

Tsavong Lah- I don't know IG Psyker Battle Squad rules, ~well great, I'm sure you're going to be a big help then but it seems like another possible solution would be to give someone in your army Saga of the Wolfkin to raise their leadership to 7, and then bring a Thunderwolf Cavalry model or two with your Wolf Lord to give them the reroll on their command checks. ~you're right, you don't know the PBS rules.  That might have helped you not look like a complete moron.

WolfLord Digby- I would say its a yes...but why the hell would you want to add the priest anyway as hes just gonna reduce the movement of the fenrisian wolves and the attached Thunderwolf mounted Lord...and then they will get the [censored] shot out of them... ~technically he's just getting rid of "fleet," so, as the OP suggested, having the Priest leave at the right moment would eliminate this issue.

PagingMrHerman- The priest is there to give the unit fearless so they are not ran off the board or pinned the entire game by the Psyker Battle Squad. ~repeating your repetition helps you to repeat what needs to get repeated.

Brother Ramses- Trying to backdoor the limitations of what units a Thunderlord can join is cheating plain and simple. ~you know, "cheating" has gotten bandied around quite a bit lately and I think that.... you know what how about this: FUCK YOU!

Both RAW and RAI are clear in this case of a having a non-Fenrisian or TWM model restricted from being in the same unit as a TWM. ~clear as mud To try to circumvent that rule is not even rules lawyering, it is cheating. ~to accuse somebody massaging rules of cheating isn't even annoying, it's completely baseless

PagingMrHerman- Awesome, Brother Ramses! I have missed the clear rule explanation prohibiting this scenario. ~oh sarcasm how I've missed you Please provide said explanation and backup from the rulebook and codex preventing a Wolf Priest from joining a Fenrisian Wolves unit with a Wolf Lord.

Also, please forward along any insight you have from the author(s) that gives us their intent with the rule. You seem to have knowledge I am not privy to.  ~oh shit, I think I like you.  We feel a lot of the same ways about stuff and junk.

Brother Ramses- The units that a TWM can join is clearly spelled out in the codex.  ~a gold farthing to the man that can spot the conjugation error in that sentence It is what is called a rule. ~and now that we've established that we knew this 10 posts ago, please continue...

Now a Wolf Priest has no limitations to what units he can join, however by his joining a unit that contains thunderwolves, he is forcing them to break their rule.  ~except that whole argument that the TWM is still technically in a unit of Fenrisian Wolves

So while theoretically a Wolf Priest can join a thunderlord and Fenrisian wolves, the moment he does the thunderlord can no longer be part of that unit due to his limitations. ~so you just agreed with Mr. Herman.  I don't think you're smart enough to realize that, so I thought I'd point that out for you, just to make it CLEAR

PagingMrHerman- There is no rules basis for these statements. In no current rulebook, codex, or FAQ is this stated.  ~you really think it's fair to bring a battle of wits to an unarmed man.  Seriously, somebody is going to get hurt here

Brother Ramses- As was pointed out in the old codex, the faq, and Blood Claws, you cannot use a game mechanic to break a rule. ~1.  old anything is obsolete and irrelevant 2.  you can use game mechanics to do whatever the fuck you want 3.  fuck off Case in point was firing a plasmagun equipped Blood Claw to prevent them from being forced to charge if within 6" of an enemy unit. This was rectified in the new codex by not allowing them to shoot at all if within charge range.  ~I would love to know what that is supposed to prove- codex updates fix rules situations?  Well that's completely germane to this situation, now isn't it?  Oh shit, it's not

PagingMrHerman- Old codexes, FAQS, rulebooks, etc. are not relevant. In fact, if you use them as a basis for 5th edition rules, you're the one cheating.  ~excellent parry.  I'm looking forward to the riposte

Brother Ramses- So if you want to backdoor the rule by joining the Wolf Priest to the unit, you are willingly and knowingly breaking the TWM rule, and thus cheating. ~at this point I pretty much just want to backdoor your entire family, while forcing you to watch

PagingMrHerman-B There's no rule to backdoor, therefore it's not cheating.

 
 
 

The_Betrayed_Spacewolf- actually no. as long as the twolves join a fenrisian wolves unit they are fine. the wolf priest can then join and there is no problem as the wolf priest has no restriction. end of debate, end of story. THE RULES ALLOW IT. ~well that argument- you know, the one that has already been used ad nauseum- is sure to close the case on this one
 
 
 

Brother Ramses- The TWM can only join Fenrisian wolves and TWC.  ~and technically he still is, regardless of what else happens to be in that unit  As soon the Wolf Priest joins the TWM with Fenrisian wolves or TWC, the thunderlord is no longer eligible to be part of that unit. ~because why? As the codex mentions the would be just "asking for trouble".

You act as if once the TWM joins the Fenrisian wolves or TWC by himself, the condition is fulfilled.  ~he's probably acting that way because it is However the TWM is not a temporary condition. A wolf lord for example suddenly does not have a TWM after he has joined Fenrisian wolves or TWC. It is a constant condition whose requirements must be met at all times. ~he would be meeting THE ONE requirement, you fuck.  Please just do us all a favor and stop posting The moment you move the Wolf Priest within coherency of the TWM/Fenrisian wolves unit, you are breaking the TWM requirement of only being allowed to be with Fenrisian wolves and TWC.  ~no that rule restricts him from joining UNITS that are not Fenrisian Wolves or TWC.  So he can't join Long Fangs and shit like that.  No matter what, as with the OP's plan, he's still joining a unit of Fenrisian wolves.  Try to suck less at rules please

Try as you might to rules lawyer around it, you are left trying to prove a condition that is illegal. ~just because you made up a "condition" doesn't mean his plan is illegal

Marshal Wilhelm- TWM says "... he may only join TWC or Fen Wolf units - anything else is asking for trouble"

You argue that the Priest can now join the Wolf unit as he has no restrictions on him.

Imagine this scenario without the Wolf unit.

Does that then mean although the ThunderLord could not join the Priest,
the Priest could join a ThunderLord? ~moot point, he's not joining wolves or TWC, your example is poorly thought out and your face is stupid

"the wolf priest can then join and there is no problem as the wolf priest has no restriction. end of debate, end of story. THE RULES ALLOW IT." ~random quote hanging at the end of your post from somebody I think you disagree with is quite random
 

PagingMrHerman- I understand that you cannot attach a Thunderwolf Mounted IC with a unit of, say, Grey Hunters. However, there is no rule stating that another IC is prohibited from joining a unit of Fenrisian Wolves or TWC if a Thunderwolf Mounted IC is attached already. No such rule. None. ~they're not going to get it dude, just leave before it's too late.
 

Marshal Wilhelm- I feel I have answered your question. ~with an irrelevant example and a post that made no sense at all?  Your mother tells you that she thinks you're special, doesn't she?

You cannot attach the TWM to Infantry.
Nor can you attach Infantry to TWM.
That Infantry forms a portion of a Beast unit, still does not make the new unit not having some Infantry.  ~ok, before you post anything else please learn to construct sentences. 

Are you saying an IC can attach to the TWM as the Infantry IC does not have the restriction? I would not think so.  ~no he's saying that the TWM's only restriction of joining a unit of wolves or TWC is met.
How is it that a unit containing either an Infantry or a TWM IC could be joined to the other then?
It cannot. ~fick dich ins Knie, alter.  yeah multi-lingual swearing....putas

PagingMrHerman- Marshal Wilhelm, I feel that you have not supported your position with any real rules from the rulebook or codex. ~so you're saying that poor rhetoric, incomprehensible writing, and made up rules don't count for anything.  shit I have no idea why you're bringing infantry and beast unit types into this discussion - is there a rule I'm unaware of? If so, please tell me where to find it. ~just follow the trolley to the land of make believe.  You'll find the rulebook in the castle

From what I see, this is just your own personal ruling on the matter as the rules are not clear one way or the other, and if the rules do not prohibit it, then I don't understand why it wouldn't be legal. ~you know, it really looks like you had this all figured out before you posted.  Why did you even bother posting?
 

Marshal Wilhelm- TWM says can only join Fen Wolves or TWC. This is clear. ~check

Are you saying that a normal IC can join the TWM IC? ~no, objection, irrelevant
Yes ~ because the normal IC has no restriction on him?
No ~ because changing who joins who is just trying to get around a clear rule? ~OMG, please learn to make a clear point.  I love that the same people that bitch about GW's rules writing couldn't write their way out of a paper bag

What do you pick? ~my nose. 
It never explicitly says that although you cannot join a TWM to an IC who is not TWC or FenWolf, you cannot get the IC [who is not TWC or FenWolf] to join the TWM. ~still having a hard time wading through your bullshit, but I'll be god damned if I didn't think that you just agreed with Mr. Herman there

Are you suggesting "and if the rules do not prohibit it" that it is in fact legal for the non FenWolf/TWC IC to join the TWM? ~rules don't prohibit it?  sounds legal to me
Is it that the "rules are not clear one way or the other" on this, in your opinion?

a}I pick No, because the TWM not being able to join the non-Fen wolf/TWC IC [which was why I used Infantry to designate him as being "not Fen Wolf/TWC" in my previous post] is the same as the Infantry IC not being able to join the TWM.{a
This is not a personal ruling. Just understanding what TWM is saying.  ~when you can't logically prove your point and want to confuse the shit out of your readers- more brackets!

When the Priest joins the FenWolves, the TWM still cannot join this new unit. The unit now has Infantry in it.  ~please I beg you stop repeating the same wrong ass argument over and over.  you know what, fuck this... It is ineligible for the TWM to join. This is not a personal ruling. The unit is now combined and IS made up of two kinds of model. One that is eligible for the TWM to join and the other is ineligible for the TWM to join.
So the unit is ineligible to be joined.


When the TWM joins the FenWolves, the IC still cannot join this new unit. If the Infantry IC could not join the TWM in an effort to get around the TWM rule *as per {a}*then just because the unit is mostly made of FenWolves [which are fine to join] does not make the TWM any less a TWM and so the unit is still not okay for the Infantry IC to join.

I hope I have made my post more clear for you and have shown I am not making personal rulings on this. ~I'm not sure where the more clear part using real rules part came up.  Was it when you were making up rules and hiding them behind an endless stream of brackets, piss poor reasoning, and affronts to English composition?

What do you think about my points? ~that you're an idiot

G.A.K.- I don't see what all the trouble is. The TWM resriction is only used to detail who an IC on a TWM can join, so no footslogging greyhunters can be used to get the lord in range to move off alone. He can't lead those warriors effectvely while controling his mount. ICs only other resriction is that they can't join vehicle or monstrous creature units, plan and simple. ~been here, done that.  Add something new to the conversation or I'm striking out your shit

I fail to see why a IC w/ TWM can't join the unit, and have another IC join the unit as well. It seems that 'you guys' are reading way to into this. Its only purpose of the TWM resritction IMHO is to limit the 'bodyguard' choices for the TWMed IC: either you get cheap and swishy ones, or tough and pricy ones. Having an IC join a unit has no effect on the unit's original classification. ~and again we've fallen into the "I'm going to make up shit about the game designer's intentions" category. 

example: Don't say you weren't warned
If I joined an IC w/ a jumppack (or a wolfguard for that matter) to a squad of GHs, does that make the GHs jump infanrty? No it doesn't. I see no difference between those occurances. If i'm wrong then I just found the best way to stop JoWW from hurting my units all together, because it has no effect on jump infantry.


Is this really an issue? who has thier panties in such a bunch over this? I'd say the problem is them not us. I see a lot of posts but no real logic here, as stated before there is only a lot of 'i think' or RAI. I don't have a crystal ball so I wait for the FAQs and don't wade into the murky waters of RAI.

Brother Ramses- There is no qualm that a Wolf Priest can join the unit. However by doing so, he makes it illegal for the TWM to be part of that unit. ~according to rules made up by ramses

The TWM rule specifically lists the units he may join, ergo, becoming part of said units. At no time does that rule cease to be in effect. As long a the TWM is part of that unit, it can ony consist of said allowed units (Fenrisian wolves/TWC). ~which is stated nowhere in any rule other than your made up ones

So it doesn't matter if you join the Wolf Priest to the unit after the fact. Once he joins he has made it illegal for the TWM to continue being part of said unit.

jmurph- Please read your rules more carefully. The TWM restriction only applies to joining units. Once joined, it doesn't state he must leave. ~I think you missed the other special rule "tits or gtfo" that TWM have Of course if he did leave, you could then make an argument that he could not rejoin. It would be an erroneous one since the unit type doesn't change based on other attached characters, but you could make it. ~thank you

Unless, of course, you can cite a rule stating that a unit of X ceases to be that whenever and IC joins the unit ~good luck citing a rules that doesn't exist fuckers.  Not sure if this will actually stop anybody, though
 

Brother Ramses- Please explain how a Wolf Priest becomes either a Fenrisian wolf or a TWC when he joins said unit. ~nobody ever said that.  Please explain why this matters

He doesn't therefore making it impossible for the TWM to remain part of that unit.

Please explain how a TWM stops being a TWM by being joined by a Wolf Priest.  ~never stated by anybody here.  Also, why the fuck does this matter.  TWM joins wolves, meeting his restriction, end of story.

jmurph- Irrelevant. The unit is still the unit- it now just has a joined IC. A unit of TWC with an attached Wolf Priest is still a unit of TWC. Can you provide a source that contradicts this? ~does it have to be one that's not imaginary? Even if the unit is somehow no longer a TWC unit (for argument's sake it is now some unspecified unit), joining the priest *after* the TWM HQ still avoids this.

 

Brother Ramses- He doesn't. He is still a TWM and will be a TWM until removed from play and thus is requiered to maintain following his rules. ~done arguing with you, you don't get it, and likely never will. 

jmurph- Rules please? The TWM mount rules only apply to joining.


 
 
 
 
 
 

Brother Ramses- I mean really, how do you get around the simple ruling that TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolve units or TWC units? ~probably being in a unit of Fenrisian wolves helps this whole argument, ass hat.
 
 
 
 

jmurph- Because that is not what the rule says. The rule states:"... (H)e may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves units". It does not address units he has already joined. Indeed, arguing he remains a separate units contradicts both the rules and the argument that he can't join a legal unit with an IC attached. ~lost me on that last bit there, but nice job actually quoting something and not sounding like a dipshit
 

The_Betrayed_Spacewolf- the rules also do not say the priest can not join the unit. just attach the wolf lord first and all rules are satisfied. the wolf lord joined a twc or f. wolf unit and there is nothing stopping the wolf priest. this is not up for discussion this is the rules. and these are the breaks


 
 

Brother Ramses- Your post is like a parrot that has been hanging out with Paging and JMurph. ~Polly wants you to shut the fuck up ::whistles:: At no point do you actually address either the TWM rule or IC joining or leaving a unit rule ~except all those times that they did address it, that you apparently ignored, which both exclude you from trying to join a Wolf Priest to a TWM via cheating.

Marshal Wilhelm- BBB pg 47

"Characters as leaders
Remember that a unit's Ld tests are taken using the Leadership of the model with the highest Ld value in the unit (see page 8). As characters normally have a better Ld than other warriors, this means they make very good leaders for other units in the army" ~sweet, now we're getting completely off topic.  this is gonna be great

pg 8
"Leadership tests
Tests made against the Ld characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Ld test, roll 2d6.... If the result is equal to or less than the model's Ld, the test is passed.
If a unit includes models with different Ld values, always use the one with the highest Ld value...."~still waiting for my mind to be blown

pg 48
Third dot point
"While an IC is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together" ~mind still firmly intact.  maybe you need more brackets

When the Wolf Priest joins the FenWolves, he and they become one unit.
Therefore the TWM cannot join them.  ~WAIT, what?!?

When the TWM joins the FenWolves, he and they become one unit.
Therefore the Priest cannot join them. ~wait, did you just quote yourself, from one line in the past?
->unless you are saying [if we get rid of the FenWolves for a moment] that although the TWM cannot join the Wolf Priest, if the Priest is the one doing the joining to the TWM it is okay because the Priest does not have that restriction on him....? I hope not. ~and once again you prove yourself to be a idiot

The_Betrayed_Spacewolf- ok leadership tests have nothing to do with this problem.... so thats useless. coherency is not the problem either.... so ... do you have a point? ~I'm beginning to wonder that myself. 

when the wolf lord on mount joins the wolves he is part of the fenrisian wolf units. he is not part of the wolf priest unit now is he? the wolf priest can then join later on as all his rules have been completed. there is nothing the in the thunderwolf rules that state they must leave when another character joins does it? ~only in the made up rules
 

Marshal Wilhelm- Let's cut to the chase. ~does that happen with or without brackets?

This is the question I need you to answer :

If there were no FenWolves in this scenario, are you saying that the Wolf Priest could join the TWM? ~doesn't matter, baseless argument is baseless
+++
My quotes show exactly what happens when an IC joins a unit. ~I remember some business about leadership tests and coherency and movement speeds.  Oh and nothing that pertains to the issue at hand
It is not Unit A + Unit B.
Or Unit A and Unit B kin close proximity.
They become one new unit. Unit X, if you will. ~unit X, the unstoppable mutant killing machine.  Part wolf, part priest, 100% bad ass

Quote 1 shows they become one new unit.
"Remember that a unit's Ld tests are taken using the Leadership of the model with the highest Ld value in the unit (see page 8)" ~I am absolutely floored and appalled by your failure to employ logic and reason.  This is amazing
In the unit, not anything seperate.
A member of the unit.

Quote 2 clarifies [if it is needed] ~{[(it isn't needed or relevant)]} that the IC is not a trailer to the unit's car, if you will, but that he is of the unit.
"If a unit includes models with different Ld values, always use the one with the highest Ld value...."
Includes. Part of. Belonging to.  ~thanks, I almost forgot how Ld worked

Quote 3, lifted straight from the IC joining and leaving units entry, again says it.
"While an IC is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"
Part of. ~part of what.  why you're a fucking half-wit?  Why you should stop arguing?  Tell me; I need you to finish that thought

Brother Ramses- Don't bother Wilhelm.  ~because you suck at debate This is just about as far reaching into blatantly cheating territory as it gets with absolutely nothing to stand on except,

"The Wolf Lord on TWM didn't join the Wolf Priest, the Wolf Priest joined the Wolf Lord on TWM!!!"  ~seriously fuck off.  this goes on for another 30 posts or more, but it's the same inane drivel, so I'm going to call this one