Friday Night Internet Fight, Round 23

Holy hell it took me forever to find a fight this week.  With people decompressing from Warbolscon and others being tied up in Nova Open preparations, things were quiet on the Internets this week.   I even had several people in on the search.  They found some pretty choice stuff on Dakka, but I picked on them last week, and didn't want to go down that road again for this round. 

Then I stumbled drunkenly into the BoLS lounge and found a collection of the most insane ravings I think I've seen since I started this quest to drive myself over the brink.  40k, the Universe, and Everything is absolutely fucking off the hook nuts.  Ordinarily I would consider myself a sucker for allusions to Douglas Adams, but by the time I was done reading this thread I wanted to curl up in bed never to come out again.  Now I know that I come off as snobby sometimes (as well as handsome, well read, and a demon in the sack)- but that's just because I'm better than you.  MutantLoveFist, however, seems to have written the book on trying too hard to be an elitist prick, and juding by the way this thread panned out, that book is probably longer than the entire collected Ayn Rand.  Other than having read everything that follows (several times, in fact) my only regret up to this point is that I probably missed about a million golden opportunities to crack jokes about fisting.  Well better luck next time, I guess.

As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement.  With most or all of the fight participants being complete turds, I will snowmobile copiously in red text.  When you're done riding this pain train please visit our gift shop and vote for the fight's winner in the poll at the upper right of your screen.  Good luck and godspeed.  Let's get it on!

MutantLoveFist- Hi all, I thought I'd post a small article ~spoiler alert: unlike Brent's idea of 6 inches, this article is not small I sent to Bols, as I doubt it will be posted. ~do you think it had anything to do with the fact that you're a complete whackjob? In short it's about an analysis of the Mythology of 40k, its inspiration/sources and any suppossed/potential/speculative meaning for us... ~heads up that's not exactly what it's about.  It' more about rambling like a complete jutz, trying to make a point, failing at that, and then listing off all of the sources GW presumably used for inspiration


‘Fluff’ is King. ~basic rules of expository writing.  eye catching first line?  Check.  Raises a point to be discussed in the essay?  Oops, looks like you fail.  Back to school with you.

I say this because it’s the truth. Everything about the Hobby is an extension of it and the hobby itself exists because of it. Indeed, I regard ‘fluff’ as the most important aspect of the Hobby ~you can make a relevant point any time now.  I'm done waiting.  for this very reason, and am personally somewhat loathed to describe the complex mythology of 40k/warhammer as mere ‘fluff’. ~but not loath to describe it as a rehashing of existing philosophies, literature, and so on as we are about to all find out in the most painful way I can imagine.  I'll be up front about this.  To make it though the rest of this  post you may need to invest in one of those  dealies they used in Clockwork Orange to keep your eyelids open and something to keep your now perpetually opened eyes moist.  Or just get liquored up and enjoy the ride. 

This mythology dictates everything. ~this author repeats his repetition It dictates the design/concept of all the miniatures (berzerker examples and such notwithstanding) and thus how they are equipped and act upon the battlefield, even to the paint schemes we all love to use. ~I feel you were almost onto a thesis statement there for a second but have strayed back to repeating your pointless intro again. In fact it is remarkable the extent of which GW has borrowed/stolen/developed many existing mythologies/cultural deritas, and the subsequent philosophical concepts, into its own grand mythology – which has, over time, become a true work of fictional genius. ~whoa, there it is. Deep in the heart of paragraph number 4, we have the thesis.  Good thing I'm bored as shit by now and waded through all of this to get to the biggest, most pointless, pseudo-intellectual go to topic of all 40kers- comparing the game to its source material and inspiration.  If you wanted to furiously dry hump my brain all you needed to do was buy me a decent dinner first.

We all may know of the many veiled references within GW’s created myth, ~replace "veiled" with "obvious" and "created" with "plagiarized" and I think we're on to something and within 40k lore in particular. For example: Abaddon being the Angel of the Bottomless Pit (eye of terror), Ahriman being the main evil in Zoroastrianism (Nietzsche’s prophetic choice for Thus Spoke Zarathustra) ~and Strauss says that your points are duuuuuuumb, duuuuuuuumb, duuuuuuuumb, DUMB-DUMB!!! dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb, Nergal/Nurgle, the Poem ‘The Dark Angel’ written by Lionel Johnson, Astarte being the Ancient Phoenician God of fertility etc. ~so are you halfway through your Freshman year of college or do you just really like google?  Or maybe you just like sounding SMRT... well keep on waxing poetic yon douche

The question this brings, to my mind anyway, is, to what is the extent that we can speculate upon this mythology? ~and now we've introduced a second topic in mid essay.  Your writing makes my brain cry How far do these names/concepts translate into something tangible that we can relate back to the human ‘condition’? ~are you really trying to imply that there is more to the universe than trite sci-fi dystopian metaphors and masturbatory references to source material?  Do we really care? ~NO!

My point is there is far more to the 40k hobby and its lore than meets the casual eye and I believe it is from these strong mythological concepts that much of our child-like fascination/dedication springs. ~Point #3 or maybe 2.51.  Now you're just trying to piss me off.  Why else do we love Space Marines? If they weren’t the 7 foot tall +, genetically/godly engineered, warrior gods armed with thermo-nuclear explosive penetrating guns and were all called names like ‘Gerald’, then none of us would even care. ~hey if hollywood can make a movie about an alien named Mac, then why the hell not.  Hi, I'm Jim the Ultra Marine (worst chapter name ever btw)

I will give one such example of this speculative mythological extension, the Emperor. The ‘God’ of humanity has many references contained within his myth, from the Eagle that’s his symbol – any base search will lead to the discovery that it’s an ancient symbol used by the Egyptians, ****s etc…~I don't recall an ancient civilization named the "radio edits****'s" but there is also a case for a link to more esoteric mythology/philosophy. ~you've hit a new height of being esoteric- so much so that I think you're just jacking off your own ego at this point I’ll simply provide a lengthy quote from Manly P. Hall’s ‘The Secret Teaching of All Ages’ and you can all make up your own minds, anything in [-] is an interjection upon my part: ~snowmobiling Hall or any respected author (except Hemmingway- fuck that guy) is bad form.

SOLOMON, THE PERSONIFICATION OF UNIVERSAL WISDOM

The name Solomon may be divided into three syllables, SOL-OM [as in the famous chant – all together now ‘OMMMM’] – ON, symbolising light, glory, and truth collectively and respectively. The Temple of Solomon is, therefore, first of all “the House of Everlasting Light,” its earthly symbol being the temple of stone on the brow of Mount Moriah. According to the ancient Mystery teachings, there are three Temples of Solomon – as there are three Grand Masters, three Witnesses, and three Tabernacles of the Transfiguration. The first temple is the Grand House of the Universe, in the midst of which sits the sun (SOL) upon his golden throne. The twelve signs of the zodiac as Fellow-Craftsmen gather around their shining lord. Three lights – the stellar, the solar, and the lunar – illuminate this Cosmic Temple. Accompanied by his retinue of planets, moons, and asteroids, this Divine King (SOLomon), whose glory no earthly monarch shall ever equal, passes in stately pomp down the avenues of space. Whereas Chiram represents the active physical light of the sun, SOLomon signifies its invisible but all-powerful, spiritual and intellectual effulgency [brilliant radiance]…

Of course there is far more to this quote and its actual meaning/value within the Freemasonic mysteries themselves but I hope you can see, as I, the similarities in the God-Emperor. ~and there are theories that there are only a small handful of plot lines or stories in all literature/religion.  Look at Gilgamesh.  Look at the Bible.  Now look at 40 and ...oh fuck you sucked me in you miserable fucker So next time you play a game or discuss the ‘fluff’ why not think if there is any deeper meaning? Why not search for a little truth yourself? You may be surprised at what you find, and, who knows, you may even learn a thing or two…~well learning that you are a douchebag pseudo-intellectual has filled my learning quota for the day.

ARTICLE END... ~and there was much rejoicing

As an extra I'd ask if you could share any similar associations/revelations on this thread. I think it'll be good to see how many we can collectively spot. Thanks for looking...~I found Waldo!

Melissia- To be Devil's Advocate for a moment ~honestly one of my favorite Simpsons gags of all time.  If only you could have saved it for a time when you were on topic.  I guess I can't blame you much, though, I'm pretty damn confused about what the topic was supposed t be.: Fluff changes to justify changes in miniatures and rules...

MutantLoveFist-You're right in a sense, but I feel wrong in others. Fluff doesn't change only to justify new models/rules (i.e. money - if I'm correct in interpreting your tone - if not then please forgive my cynicism).  ~what in the fuck are you talking about?  What does money have to do with anything?


For example the history of the Space Marines has only been added to - not changed completely - ~except that time that it was changed rules/sets for chapters have been released but I think only in support of the fluff, indeed because of the fluff, and the demand for it. Not the other way round. Indeed much of the fluff for more established units hasn't been changed, only the design/concept/execution of the miniatures and the evolution of the rules have.

As hobbyists I think we want new armies/races/units and, yes, obviously the fluff is developed in order to bring these about - but not without good reason (it only makes sense for the Space Marines to have a dreadnought retrofitted for sieges - the Ironclad). The developments in new technologies, for both designing and making miniatures, has improved. If GW didn't improve upon their miniatures with each release I think many of us would look elsewhere (I certainly would have but each successive generation seems to get better - though I am truly disappointed at the recent price hike, especially on older ranges - the Tactical Squad being a good example). However we don't know how much, in cost/time, GW has invested in researching and developing these new technologies/programs - or what plans they have in the near future... ~and now we're on to bitching about the price hike for some reason.  I'd really like to see what's going on in your mind- find out how it doesn't work

Anyway I still think that the fluff is the prime motivator for many of us to join the hobby in the first place, if we recognise the fact or not (as I think the fluff dictates everything). As you quite rightly say, fluff changes & new models/rules come out - but I don't think that's their prime motivation for doing so. I think (perhaps wrongly) that the fluff is as important as the models/rules and the hobby would be nothing without it. Again sorry for the long post/tangent... ~way to argue yourself into a corner, backpedal, prove your adversary's point, and then start ranting about something else again.

Melissia- The history of Space Marines changed drastically at one point.

From Rogue Trader to Second Edition.

For example, at one point Space Marines were policed by the Sisters of Battle. ~I knew it!  It was only a matter of time before she hijacked this to talk about those SoBs

MutantLoveFist- I'm sorry to correct you but they still are. Space Marine chapters are required to give gene samples to the Imperial/Inquisitorial powers either regularly or on demand to test for purity of geneseed. The Ordo Hereticus keeps an eye on all Imperial Institutions, including the Astartes. If any Space Marine chapter generates any deviance or is else preaching something the Ordo deems heretical, or its Librarians use major powers unseen within other Space Marine chapters, they will investigate and purge if necessary. ~at the risk of being wrong myself I'd like to point out that it sounds like you just made all of that up and I was under the impression that the SoBs were not technically a part of the inquisition


I feel bad. I kind of wanted this to be more about the influences/origins of the fluff. On new editions/rules and models dictating fluff I still slightly disagree (about 60:40) - but perhaps I'm being naive. ~perhaps you're just being a scatterbrained train wreck They are continually developing the 40k lore and myth as it’s a whole continuation of story. For example the mass campaigns on Ichar IV and the 13th Black Crusade helped to develop new story lines and codex material, maybe not 100% accurately in accordance with the campaign results, but they still served as a guide. ~this just in: time is linear, the sky is blue, and gravity keeps us rooted to the ground.  More pointlessness at 11:00

Freefall945-It may be more accurate to say, rather than "Fluff is King", "Fluff is President". ~change we can believe in


Fluff, while indeed interesting thoroughly and, I would speculate, both radical and gnarly, it can, and often is, shifted dramatically by the consensus of its constituent parts. If the rules change so that one thing happens, the fluff will shift to accommodate it. Likewise for modeling, market audience, even fan-demand. ~woohoo go free market

MutantLoveFist- As for Fluff being President that probably is a better analogy. I still feel the fundamentals of the fluff rarely changes,~and much like the WNBA has shown us, the fundamentals, as it turns out, are not what makes the game interesting it might expand and give a new point of view on an established thing (as with the Necron Star gods and their relation to the creation/desolation of the Universe). As another example the Chaos Daemons fluff has changed little - yes they've added Bloodletters mounted on Juggernaughts and have fleshed it out - but the daemons themselves remain fundamentally the same - ~well except for that minor little issue with being able to take units from multiple gods in the same army.  You know, nothing major... fuck head only the rules/miniature design has changed in line with new editions/technology.

In all I think the fluff is a more organic process of creation - it continues to evolve but this is due to more space/time being allowed within the new codices. I'm looking forward to the Dark Eldar (when/if they appear) and to see what their codex will bring to the fluff in general...and yes, along with great minis (they could hardly do worse) ~I like the Raider model.  Looks like something worthy of having Boba Fett crash into it and the new 'unbeatable' stigma they will, most likely, receive.

OMG I've done a hench post again! ~yeah and we hate you for it.  His last 2 posts in this FNIF were actually a single post in the forum, in case you were wondering.  More epically long posts to come...

Melissia- And this has nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle. ~well seeing that this thread wasn't supposed to be about the SoBs I have to say that.... please don't hit me Melissia Unless you're trying to say the Ecclesiarchy hunts down and destroys rogue chapters. Which it doesn't. Yes, the Sisters of Battle might be called to attack a rogue chapter, but tell me-- have you ever actually read any fluff since Rogue Trader that supports that having ever happened? ~as I'm finding it difficult enough to cope with reality these days, I haven't given this very much thought

Lucidum- I'm with the Melissa on this one, ~not  a phrase I expect to see very often there's no fluff currently supporting the idea that the Space Marines are policed by the Adeptus Sororitas. In fact, the Space Marine chapters are akin to Imperium-Dedicated Mercenaries, answering the call of imperial powers at their own discretion. ~and we continue to stray from the (almost) topic of the original post Literally the only power that can directly and by its own authrority call upon Space Marine chapters for support are the Inquisitorial Ordos, and generally only those of the puritan (rather than radical) philosophy.

MutantLoveFist- I feel like we've misuderstood each other. I know an epic book ~speaking of epic, we have another super fucking long post on our hands.  Not every reply has to be a novel, you know.  Your Les Miserables length posts are only making me More Miserables.  Hiyo!  , or even slight fragment, hasn't been written to this effect, but we agree it's part of the nature of the Sisters of Battle, as the military arm of the Ordo Hereticus, to subjugate and purge any Chapter deemed heretical. It's what they exist for - to cleanse the Enemy within, including Rogue Imperial forces - be they Astartes, Guardsmen, PDF forces or a Mutant uprising. Just because we haven't read a direct account of it, doesn't mean it hasn't/wouldn't happen.


I agree that they don't police them strictly themselves - ~ok, since I'm getting the urge to empty the contents of my medicine cabinet into my stomach right now, here's what I'm gonna do.  DELETED! the Chaplains of the Chapter and the Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus do that - but, as you rightly say, they would fight a heretical chapter (which I would deem as a policing action - like extreme riot police). Indeed, I can see no reason why a Canoness wouldn't attack a group of Astartes on a battlefield if they all suddenly started to throw down Thousand Son-esque psychic awesomeness


Anyway I've quoted some background from the current dex that supports such an action will have, perhaps inevitably, happened. I agree no direct fluff exists for it - yet...


"In conjunction with their chamber militant - the Adeptus Sororitas - also known as the Sisters of Battle - the Ordo Hereticus hunt down and destroy the most insidious threats to Humanity, the enemy within [i.e traitors of all kinds]: witchcraft, heresy and mutation [for all reasons I gave before]." P.2


"Reasons Witch hunters would fight Space Marines" P.42 - gives 6 reasons, one of which includes:


"The Chapter Master has unexpectedly manifested prodigious psychic powers, calling into question the psychic screening of the chapter. The Witch Hunters [hence their military arm - the Sisters of Battle] cannot allow an entire chapter of rogue psykers to come into being, and resolve to wipe them out before its too late."


You might not have heard about it because...


"Throughout history the Adepta Sororitas have been instrumental in many actions, some of which, due to their instigation at the hands of the secretive Ordo Hereticus, may never be written of in the official histories of the Imperium". P. 7


And if you can count DoW Soulstorm as fluff...then they most certainly have (although I know that's pushing it a bit).


In short. No, they don't police them themselves. No expansive fluff has been written to this effect. Yet it is only logical that should the Ordo Hereticus deem a chapter to be heretical they would call upon the Sisters to fight - as they are the predominant military arm for the Ordo and Ecclesiarchy. Just as Deathwatch are for the Ordo Xenos and Grey Knights the Ordo Malleus. ~There I feel a lot better now.  Suddenly life seems more worth living in a world without the insane ramblings of this asshat.

rbryce- i think its more a case of which chapter would be eradicated. ~Eeeeeeeeeradicator  All of the current "big" chapters cant be wiped as many play those armies(lookin at you space pups, your heresy has continued too long!), people dont care to read about a chapter they've never heard of, and imperium vs. everyone else sells more, though id like to read more infighting and imperium vs. imperium screw ups. ~anybody else get the feeling that we we're in a little rubber raft floating around the island that is the thread topic, but were pulled out to sea by a riptide? As it stands though, its not been rewritten, and it makes sense for the ecclisiarchy at least to be concerned with religious practices that may go "too far" in their eyes. The ordo hereticus would obviously have a stake in the purity checks of SM gene seed as they are primarily focussed on interior matters(and rogue chapters prove a serious threat). Nice article by the way. I personally put more of an imprint of myself on fluff, and use it as a background in which to set fantastical stories, and as such believe fluff is very personal to each person. ~the first occurence of fluff should be viewed as a magical time in your life.  Your voice will deepen, you'll notice some exciting new changes to your body and you'll start to pay attention to girls

MarneusCalgar- Boys, ~and Melissia space marines have always selled ~since you're from Spain I won't make fun of your grammar.  Your English is better than my Spanish.  That won't stop me from giving you a racist ass avatar, though very well for GW... I have no doubt they won´t kill any codex chapter... Even those with lesser players as Dark Templars or Dark Angels. ~you know since we're so far off topic at this point, I would be so excited if the re-wrote the Dark Angels codex right now.  I'm talking like full on chub excited here.

AirHorse- This thread has been nicely derailed ~wasn't anything nice about the derailing if you ask me

In attempt to steer ~there has got to be a cattle driving joke in there somewhere.  The fact that your avatar depicts English saddle riding is of no importance to me.  What up dressage!!! Ok I'm sorry I'll stop horsing around it back to the original point, I totaly agree. The 40k universe is just as deep philosophically as it is lore wise. ~rehashing classic themes from literature, philosophy, and culture isn't deep if that's all you're bringing to the table.  This is one of the many reasons Christopher Nolan is a hack film maker Reflecting on the 40k lore and how it has incorporated so many different things made me realise how great a representation of humanity it really is.

Guessing where the inspiration from for different characters and aspects of the background(and realising that in some cases it couldve been from many different things from history!) helped me realise that people always incorporate their own experiences into everything they do. ~I hope to never incorporate anything I have experienced in reading this thread into my life Its made reading through various historical or religious things so much more interesting realising that even though they arent written for the sake of entertainment that they are just like 40k, full of hidden ideas and messages, even if the writer incorporated them without realising

dvs1- wow, nice article. Makes you stop and think. ~did it?  Well here's what I think about the rest of your post.  DELETED!!!!!! Once upon a time I also believed that fluff was something designers used to make allowances towards models, rules, etc... but when you think about it, it is exactly just that which we desire. I believe in the concept of the fluff evolves over time, and that keeps things both interesting and somewhat cohesive. Without changes to it, we all might as well be playing with the rogue trader rulebook. In my experience, when a person complains about changes in fluff about their army, its usually because it didn't agree well with their version of how it should be. Not to mention its probably pretty hard keeping what, hundreds? of writers past and present to agree to a single train of thought as there are bound to be minor discrepancies. Major ones would be rarer, and in most cases the new version of events are not as far fetched as one would think. Not to mention we get all those tasty new minis to go with the 'overpowered' new rules. ~at least you were the first person to be on topic.  That probably counts for something at least.  We'll save a nice spot for you in hell.

MutantLoveFist- Thank you all for your comments, but back to the original topic of fluff and influences did you know that Termagant is - n. A quarrelsome, scolding woman; a shrew. adj. Shrewish; scolding. ~if that was a subtle jab at Melissia, Kudos to you.  If not, shut the fuck up.  Look at the big brain on Brad.  [From Middle English Termagaunt, imaginary Muslim deity...? The little *******s...and that Terminator also means the dividing line between light and darkness on the moon? ~did you know that it was also a movie starring an Austrian body builder? Yes, I know - I can use a dictionary! ~ and yes I know I could give a flying fuck Anyway I find little things like this interesting (my life is that exciting) ~did you know that one time Bender said "compare your lives to mine then kill yourselves?"  It was so deep and spoke to me on so many levels and made me feel ways about stuff and junk and I really got to thinking about how that really pertains to the current situation at hand and human condition Mesopotamia Summarian tablet tower of Babel blah blah blah although I'm not saying that they have a direct meaning or value within the context of the fluff, it's philosophy or the human condition... ~insight into your human condition: lots of Mountain Dew, Cup O' Noodles, and pooping in socks

Melissia- Yes, Sisters would fight Space Marines. Nevermind that GW hasn't had Sisters successfully do it since Rogue Trader... ~Aaaaahhhhh why are you still harping about this you termagant!

That is not the same as Sisters policing Space Marines. ~seriously who's watching the Watchmelissia?  The fluff has changed. Hell, half the time the Inquisition isn't even able to get Space Marines to do anything they want.
 
 

BlackKnightIII- I believe in the Space Wolves codex there is a story abour 3 sister battle companies attacked Fenris. There were others involved with the attack but I cant remember off the top of my head. ~why are you fueling the fires of insanity that comprise Melissia?  They wanted to investigate charges or Gene Seed mutations or something like that and when they came to fenris the Space Wolves fought back. They eventually settled on a live and let live policy.
 
 

Melissia- Which is silly of GW, as Sisters don't use "companies" (the rough equivalent is probably a Commandery). ~oh my fucking god.  It's like all of your thoughts have just collided with one another, what with your one track mind and all


Goes like this:
Sisters of Battle: Led by Abbess Sanctorum, unknown number of Orders
Order: Led by Canoness Superior, contains many (no known upper limit) Preceptories
Preceptory: Led by a Canoness Preceptor, contains ~1000 Sisters (five Commanderies)
Commandery: Led by a Canoness Commander, contains ~200 Sisters (several Missions)
Mission: Led by a Canoness or Palatine, contains "a few units" (probably referring to squads) ~thanks for the history lesson doctor fake universe