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Friday, September 24, 2010

Friday Night Internet Fight: Round 30

What up bitches?  It's Friday again, let's have us an Internet fight.  Comcast came out and replaced all my cable wiring outside the house, so hopefully I'll be able to write this shit without my modem resetting every ten minutes.  That would be totally tits. 

For today we turn our attention to the home of snarky comments and mega trolling (all in good fun and taste, of course), The Warhammer Forum for some tactical discussion.  Now who would ever expect a conversation about using pivoting to gain extra vehicle movement would turn into an argument?  Well I never....

As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement.  I've taken lots of liberties with editing the original thread into a coherent narrative.  Things are not in their original order; if you don't like it, you can suck my left nut until the right one gets jealous.  My snowmobiling will be done in red.  Don't forget to hit up the poll on your right to vote for the winner of this week's fight. 

Migi- Okay, recently at my LGW a guy deployed his Land Raider sideways, right on the border of the deployment zone. During his first turn he pivoted the LR, making sure to keep the middle in exactly the same place and managed to grab about an extra 3 inches of "movement" for free.

Is this legal? ~yes!  end of discussion.  or is it?

Migi ~Hey asshammer, we know who you are, why the fuck do you feel the need to sign your name? how redndantly redundant

Tinfish- it is, but your opponent is a tool.  ~oh no, your opponent was clearly an asshole waac jerk.  Quick everyone shun him and blah blah.  Anybody else tired of this bullshit yet?

cobbles- It's not clear in the rulebook IMO how to do movement for tanks apart from saying pivot the tank around its centre point,~yeah, that thing you just described that tells you exactly how it's done is super fucking tricky neither is it clear if tanks can drive sideways etc. ~you can effectively move sideways by just saying that you pivoted during your move and pivoted back at the end.  The middle point of your vehicle remains the same regardless.  Learn to your brain use.

I play that turning a LR like that to gain extra movement is fine as long as that same movement is done for all tanks during the game.  ~cobblehammer 40k ftw!

Corrode- OP, this is entirely legal to do. Some people dislike it and house rule against it, but it follows the RAW exactly.  ~exactly.  But you forgot to mention that comp and house rules are stupid.

Raus- It's legal, no question about it.

Turning around your center cause vehicles who aren't perfectly square to gain inches. ~serious question:  are there any vehicles other than grot tanks that are square?  It may not be the prettiest thing to do, especially in non-tournament games, but perfectly fine according to the rule book.  ~not to mention that tanks actually maneuver like that.  Somebody else mentions this later, so I won't steal his thunder.  Plus you all know how much I love comparing Warhams to real life

 Daemonius Nemosis- Legal it may be.... sad, pathetic and unsporting is definately is. ~uggghhh yet another sad fucker who thinks that using the rulebook is unsporting.  Why don't you go find a hobby that doesn't require competition of any kind, since that's clearly what you need.  I promise I'll get you a participation trophy for whatever it is you leave warhammer for as long as you leave and never come back to piss me off.  Promise.

I'm sure the game designers didn't intend tanks and the like to move across the battle field side ways only to turn straight at the last minute, for a start its not physically possible to do in real terms (tracks and tires go backwards and forwards not sideways) and fighter jets don't general fly a great distance sideways either. ~who's moving tanks sideways?  They're just pivoting.  You are a sad case indeed.  In reference to your comment about planes, please see any VTOL like the Harrier.

I concur with Tinfish's last comment, what a tool! ~I concur with the comment I'm about to make: FUCK YOU!
mort2k- Totally disagree, its in the rule book in back and white ~back and white even how vehicle moves and there is nothing illegal, Sad,Pathetic or unsporting about it.

The only time its any of these things is when people only follow the rule when it suits and not all the time. ~which would be cheating.  This is relevant how?  There are many disadvantages to this type of movement also. ~exposing your side armor blocking LOS (can be good though) and so on.  But hey, thanks for the examples The problem is people did not notice the definition in the rule book untill 5th had been out a while and then people only appleid when it suits and not all the time.

Out of all the things in the rule book that are iffy this is not one. 
frosty- Actually tracked vehicles DO pivot round thier centre when turning
~as promised, real tanks, really pivoting, really putting the nose out further as it were

see.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO-_ymbLu18

Note the turret which is roughly central

also read.. http://www.gizmology.net/tracked.htm

Tracked vehicles "steer" by one track going slower than the other, they pivot on the spot by putting one track in reverse & the other forwards.

Daemonius Nemosis- My point is, tracks (like wheels) cannot move sideways. ~your point is stupid and wrong.  You're stupid The vehicle can turn/pivot by whatever means has been designed and continue forward but they can't actually move sideways like a crab. Wheels (as tracks are dependent on wheels) can roll back and forth but if you push it sideways it'll fall flat. ~when did anybody even so much as imply that these tanks were creeping around sideways

It may be a perfectly legal move, but its still a dubious one, in the same way that spreading the wounds out over a Nob unit to prevent removing whole models is legal but still dubious.
kong- Dubious, please. ~you can't say that.  That's OUR word

Next you are going to say that taking Vendetta's and Manticores in guard armies is dubious as they are obviously too good ~really anything he can't wrap his tiny mind around is going to be dubious in this asshole's mind
Daemonius Nemosis- Perhaps dubious was the wrong word, gamey is probablly a better one, ~mmm, the ripe smell of nature.  Fresh boar, venison.... if indeed that is a word
Movement is one thing I try to be a tight and transparent as possible because of the game changing potential it has, ~so you cheat at rolling your to heats and what not then, since it's not important to be transparent?  A little double-knuckle shuffle on the side?  and so for a player to creep and inch or so out of a 'legal' move does deserve all the criticism they get and is guilty of playing a less than clean game as far as I'm concerned.
nurgleonbass- To me it's not so much the dodgy mechanics of how the tank might be moving, it's the blatantly trying to gain extra distance at the start of the game I object to. ~if it's allowed, your point is moot.  Oh it is allowed.  Great!  Distances are fairly abstract in 40K, so I wouldn't get hung up about exactly how the tank manoeuvres, it's the principle of the thinking behind the ploy I don't like. ~forgetting of course the shit ton of reasons to start tanks sideways, like creating bunkers, protecting your other units for starters

Personally I think tanks should be treated a bit like infantry in fantasy in that no part of the tank should move further than the maximum distance allowed no matter what pivots or turns it makes. That would stop nonsense like this. ~and we get another poorly thought out, half-baked piece of shit house rule.  Fan-fucking-tastic
Rawhead- If you don't like it don't do it!

If your opponent does it,
question it,
complain about it,
call a ref if it is a tourny, ~so the ref can officially tell your whiny bitch ass that you're wrong?
finaly accept it get on with it,
watch as your opponant tries to justify it, ~see Rawhead act like an imbecile! Watch him attempt to be profound! Be astounded as he continues to misspell every other word!
remain magnanimous in the knowlege that although beaten by RAW you have the moral higher ground. ~no you are in the fucking moral gutter for being a god damn prick for calling somebody who's using perfectly legal tactics a tool.  Wow that last sentence sure wasn't constructed well.  meh
Corrode- I'm really not comfortable with moralising about things like taking advantage of game mechanics. I can understand a dislike of rules lawyering and reliance on very specific interpretations of wording to achieve an effect outside of the rules, but in this case the wording is perfectly clear and whilst it's gamey and perhaps unnatural it's no more so than many other things in 40k. ~please let this be the end of the argument
nurgleonbass- And that is why you are the new filthmaster

The wording maybe perfectly clear, but I am pretty sure the game designers were not thinking 'yes, this is a good idea, it means tanks which are longer than they wide can gain an advantage when they pivot'. ~holy fucking shit, is nothing ever good enough for ballsacks like yourself?  Rules aren't clear enough.  That's not what the game designers had in mind.  Blah fucking blah blah.  Shut up! If that is the case, and I'm sure it is, you are manipulating a game mechanic that had good intentions for your own gain. Not very sporting in my book, but I don't dispute for one moment it is allowed. ~and deliberately not using rules or advantages to play a watered down, shit game is unsporting in my book.  Looks like we'll just have to agree that you're a dickhead.
Corrode- Because I'm sad I actually got the tape measure out and checked this. It works out to be pretty irrelevant - using a Land Raider, the gain is 2" - not quite enough for a turn 1 assault. A Land Raider can get a turn 2 assault regardless of whether or not it does this, and the advantage is lost as soon as you move laterally.  ~well this makes me feel just that much worse about wasting my time and getting emotionally invested in this subject The only situation where it might achieve anything impressive is if you go second and your opponent moves a unit which starts on his own deployment line forwards between 1 and 3 inches, or alternatively if he starts his entire army within 1" of his own board edge (since it would allow you a turn 2 assault rather than a turn 3). ~or using something like a Valkyrie to pull off a first turn charge.  You can totally do it without the pivot move if you're moving in a straight line, but if your desired target doesn't happen to be exactly in front of you, that 2" could help out

Dark Eldar Raiders and Battlewagons ~and Valkyries might get more out of it since they're both much narrower, meaning their centre point is closer to the deployment line, but I don't have either of those models close enough to check. Either way, the Wagon exposes its side armour to do this, and I'm not sure Raiders need any help getting about.

e: Just to address the point about gaining an advantage, technically you gain distance any time a tank which is longer than it is wide turns on the spot - ~is it just me or does that sound really dirty? the parts on the front will move further than the parts in the middle, since they gain distance with the turn and then get their full movement from that point. This is mostly relevant with assault vehicles, but for stuff like Chimeras and Rhinos where the fire points are on the back you gain distance by turning the tank around at the end of its move. I'm not sure anyone would call that unsporting, though, and I'm pretty sure that it's intended since the rules are explicitly written to work that way. Getting into the murky waters of RaI is a depressing experience for everyone involved, though. ~it is, but you were actually doing it well.
Rawhead- When you see your opponant set up his vehicles sideways, it lets you know what kind of game to expect! ~I would be expecting to be playing 40k at that point.  I'd at least know that we weren't going into a game of LoTR
Castigator- What you trying to say Rob? I usually set my Rhinos up sideways so that my Exorcists have a cover save ~yay sound tactics in a forum.  life seems worth living again all of the sudden
frosty- Indeed, I usually start my Landraider sideways to create a 1st turn barrier of protectyness for my Vindi and Razorbacks ~I do want to live again.  Thanks guys!


SandWyrm said...

Ugh. That was the most stupid, pointless argument I've ever seen. Over one of the few rules that's NOT worded badly.


Anonymous said...

This fight fo' sho' needed more tits and 'spozions.c

Messanger of Death said...

The Monolith is a square and the world is filled with self-righteous douche bags. But there is help:



Stormy said...

I'm surprised that you took that long to get something from TWF - its the home of anal40k.

The Warhammer section is worse though. There's been plenty of discussions have descended into name-calling because of the use of a single word.

I reckon you'll be plumbing its depths before too long...

Nikephoros said...

The only thing more anal than people trying to deny you doing this are the people that DEMAND you deploy your Land Raiders sideways because their chassis is longer than 6" and there is only a 6" deployment zone. Why do I attract these people?

Hoagy said...

Was I the only one that wanted to punch Daemonius Nemosis in the nether regions?

Anonymous said...

Just to stir up the hornet's nest, can you point me to the page in the BRB where this is clear? Pivot on the center, I agree. But it says for movement to measure to or from the mysterious "the hull" If you only measure center to center, there are parts of "the hull" that clearly move more than the allowed amount when doing the turn 1 turn trick.

For a while I was firmly in the trick is illegal camp, but I've come accept it's probably RAW. That being said, there wording is far from clear.

Brent said...

I'm meant to point this out for awhile now, DT, but how much to you hate it that I tend to sign my posts?

Redundant, no?


Archnomad said...

Migi, for asking the question then getting the fuck out of the thread. Somewhat akin to the hospital scene in the dark knight.