Friday Night Internet Fight: Round 28: Post 200 Bonanza: Longest Post Title Ever: Colon

Woohoo, I've made it to my bicentennial post and even got it to randomly sync up with FNIF.  Hooray for me.  It's seriously been a fun ride guys and gal, so thanks for reading and sending me e-mails about all of the stuff/people that are pissing you off in the hobby.  Isn't catharsis great?


But enough of that shit, it's Friday, we've got serious business ahead of us.  It's time for a FNIF.  This week, we revisit my favorite place on the Internet- Dakka's 40k You Make da Call for "Taking your best save!"  The thread starts out well enough, with nobody truly adding an opinion or trying to get off of the fence, but quickly slides into making up rules quotes, calling people out on that, trying to cover one's ass, and general hilarity.  This should be a quick read for all of you this week, so enjoy, it doesn't happen too often around here....

As always none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement.  The original thread has been edited to flow naturally and portions of the conversation that won't effect the outcome have been edited out.  Being the dick that I am, I will make fun of everyone with a copious amount of red snowmobiling.  Enjoy the show...

Brutii11- This is probably a bit of a silly question but:


I know you must take your best save.

Say you are a person with an invunerable ~is that different from an invulnerable save? save of 4 + and an armour save of 5+

You get wounded by say, a lasgun.

You are also being null zoned. ~sometimes I can't understand how my brain works, but I seriously have that fucking Kenny Loggins song from top gun stuck in my head now.

This means that your invunerable save is only going to work 25% of the time, accounting your successfull rerolls.

So your armour (which will save you about a third of the time) has a better chance of keeping you alive.

Does this mean your armour save is now your 'best save', or do you still do your invunerable even though it is techincally not as likley to save you so is not your 'best save'?

As I said this probably has an obvious answer that will have me kicking myself but ah well! ~yeah, so this doesn't have an obvious answer, but you may be kicking yourself by the end of this...

 

kirsanth-

 

Some say save is a stat--use the best one listed.

Some say the result is what matters, so do the math.

I tend to agree with the first group, but it is something worth discussing regardless ~so what you're trying to say is that other than posting a picture of a can of worms you had nothing to add to this discussion.  If you're going claim to have an opinion you might want to back it up...

 ~just in case you don't get the avatar go watch this (the worst video ever) and skip to 1:50.  or watch the whole thing because it's fucking hilarious insaniak- There are three common schools of thought on the multiple save issue:

1 - The 'best' save is the one with the lowest printed value.

2 - The 'best' save is the one with the best statistical chance of saving the model

3 - The reference to always taking the best save is simply pointing out that you have the option to choose the save that has the best chance of saving the model, rather than being intended to force players to calculate probabilities in the middle of the game. Players can simply choose which save to use. ~hmm that's funny that best doesn't imply choose whichever one to me at all

Which of those 3 is the 'correct' interpretation has been a matter of extended debate, with no clear resolution. You'll have to discuss it with your opponent until GW get around to FAQing it.
  ~sweet, thanks a bundle for also adding nothing to the conversation
 

Kommissar Kel- Being that not everyone is a mathematician(or even knows how to calculate odds on the spot, or even has committed to memory the value of all odds in any given situationduring the game); I would say best save should be assumed as Lowest printed value. ~while your claims (which are likely true) about math sadden me, at least we finally have an opinion and somebody with the balls to back it up


Is it within the RAW; yes, and no. The RAW states Best save available; not Best save situational; ~unless you argue that "available" is situational... fuck getting dragged in... generally if a model has an Armor and an Invulnerable save the Armor save is equal or better; there are a few situations where this is not the case(Cybork Bodies and no 'eavy armor for instance), and even those 2 options are only really "better" than Cover Saves in Close combat or when against weapons that ignore cover saves. However in some of those situations(Close combat vs standard marines while in the area of effect for null Zone for earlier said Cyborks) The armor save is (slightly) better.

Edit: But as said earlier discuss it with your opponent pregame if you think the situation will arise.
 
 

Orki- I think peeps should be aware of the common english involved with this. 'May' and 'must'...


IIRC ~heads up, he does not recall correctly and has, in fact, completely made this quote up "A model may always take the best save availiable..." therfore we go with the houseruling above, ie your choice.
 
 
 
 

SaintHazard- Uh. Not at all?


Page 24, "Models With More Than One Save": ~oh shit, look out a real quote

"Sometimes, a model will have a normal armour save
and a separate invulnerable save – a good example is a
Space Marine Chaplain who is protected by both
power armour and a Rosarius-generated force field.
As if this wasn’t enough the model might be in cover
as well. In these cases, the model only ever gets to
make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of
always using the best available save."

Orki- Then I recall incorrectly ~yeah no shit. Now start backpedaling, making victim statements, and continuing to fail at life... As for my use of may and must: It was a point of reference anyway, not a quote.


Common sense wins this one then ~problem with this is that clearly there is a division in thinking on this, so there is no "common sense" ruling (as usual RAW is just a guideline for 'The most important rule'). Use the 'best', which is not explicitly the lowest or the prettiest, or your 'lucky' dude's etc... ~holy fuck!  Worst argument ever!  Beyond the fact that wading through that sentence was about as much fun as jumping nude into a brier patch, you didn't actually say anything remotely useful.  Basically you just said, 'use the best save because you need to use the best save.'  Thanks.

SaintHazard- The words "may" and "must" are nowhere to be found in that entire entry.  ~clearly Orki is having enough problems right now, do we really need you pointing his fail out?

Orki- As already stated, it wasn't my point, but that neither word occurs makes it even more so then! ~wait, what?  Neither word you used appears in the rules, so those words are now more important?  I'm confused as shit right now :d Bad GW, naughty GW! We must spank them... Ooh a spanking, a spanking!! ~did you stop attending a support group or come off of your meds recently?


Me first! ~what?

SaintHazard- Really? Because this:

Orki wrote:

IIRC "A model may always take the best save availiable..." therfore we go with the houseruling above, ie your choice.

certainly looks like a quote to me.  ~have I not already asked you to play nice and stop pointing out Orki's failures?

Orki- But that's not even the 'may' and 'must' that I was referring to.  ~depends on what the meaning of "is" is.  If you're going to try and bail yourself out, writing coherently would be a great place to start.   I should've been clearer. I'm well aware of what a quote is!  ~I need some evidence that you have any idea what is going on around you before I can even pretend to believe that

SaintHazard- Not the quotation marks. Those denote a "quote."
(See what I did there?)
Not that it matters, I get your point. ~could you explain it to me, then.  I am fucking lost

Orki- Good good.


Just for clarity though, I said 'may' and 'must' in reference to general english  ~well thanks for that clarification of sorts, but you're still full of shit and your argument is invalid.  You misquoted (read blatantly made up a quote) the rules, regardless of how you try and cover that up.  Saying that you were referencing general English is not only a lie, but completely irrelevant if 'may' and 'must' are not used in the rules in question. Hence ' ', not " ". However "IIRC "A model may always take the best save availiable..."" was clearly a quote, albeit one I recalled incorrectly. Hence the IIRC...

(See what you did there?)

But i'm glad you get my point, as thats exactly what I was getting at (though not particularly well expressed it appears!).~not even remotely well expressed The rules don't explicitly state anything clearly enough to avoid potential differences in interpretation, nor do they enforce the opinion that the lowest number is your 'best' save etc. The usual GW sloppiness, whos arses are covered by the most important rule, and one which is increasingly appropriate as a cover-all disclaimer for thier lack of integrity and clarity.

I am however rather pleased that you can see past your own wit to the point beyond, it makes a refreshing change from many of the posts i've seen among the masses here and elsewhere online. Ta. (And i'm not being sarcastic for a change) ~too bad, because reading your shit was boring enough when you were failing at being sarcastic

The intellectual dick-slapping ~I'm pretty sure this isn't a saying.  Any Brits wanna back me up on that?  I know you guys like to talk about balls and whatnot a lot, but this just seems wrong among the geek comunity gets so tiresome sometimes. I think i'll go back to my choppy/sticky/painty corner now... ~please do

Lechium- Sometimes I think GW should get people from their legal department to read over their rules before they go to print... ~hmmm, I wonder what that would look like ::dissolve::  Dear GW rules writing team:  we kindly ask that you cease and desist writing rules until such time as you are capable of writing coherently and transparently.  Best, GW legal.

vikings vs mafia- The word "advantage" implies that at no point is taking the 'best' save a liability. I.E, whichever the player percieves as the best save. ~well taking any save isn't really a liability as such, since you still stand a chance of surviving...fuck getting dragged in again.


If a model MUST always take the best save, and there are possible situations in which he is at a disadvantage for doing so, it goes against the RAI.

nosferatu1001- Interesting statement with no foundation. ~interesting trolling with no point or foundation


The best save is the one which is the most accomplished at preventing wounds.  ~you must not realize that you're arguing that you agree with him right now, do you?   The function of a save is to stop wounds, so any attempt to pretend the phrase "best save" means anything other than "the most likely way you wont suffer a wound" has no basis in the rules.

SaintHazard- Please quote the rule that states the model MUST take the best save available to him.


Especially after I just quoted the rule that says nothing at all about having to do so. ~well you asked for it dickhead.  From the rules you quoted "it has the advantage of always using the best available save."  Looks like you get to use the "best" save to me as implied by the word "advantage."  Not that I really care or anything.


Pay attention, please. ~good luck with that