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Friday, November 5, 2010

Friday Night Internet Fight: Round 36

 Shit, I don't know what is worse: the fact that the thread you're about to see "highlights" from exists or what a pain in the ballsack it was to try and edit anything remotely coherent out of this non-stop quote fest.  I apologize if some things in this just plain don't make sense, but it's not really my fault: deal with it.  Advanced apologies aside, I'd like to give Katie Drake a shoutout for sending me this one and participating in the fight as well.

Now I know I said I'm getting tired of the whole competitive/WAAC vs. fluffy/shitty players debate, but sometimes somebody just takes things a step too far and something needs to be said.  This week, actually a day ago, a thread popped up on Heresy Online in which just that happens.  I don't even know what level we're on anymore here, but I'm pretty sure they aren't selling ladies' wear and perfume.  So sit back, tense up your butthole, and prepare for the excruciating pain that is about to come from 40k Needs to be Rewritten, Badly!!!  I almost wish the thread title didn't have the comma in there since that would give me yet another thing to be pissed off about.

As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement.  The thread has been carefully dissected with a chainsaw to attempt to put things into a narrative that reads easily with little regard to post order, although I really feel like even attempting to do this may have been a fool's errand this week.  Make sure you vote in the poll at the upper right of your screen to vote on this week's biggest loser.  I will be snowmobiling fools and suckas in read text.  You will not have a good time, pass go, or collect $200.

RexTalon- There needs to be AT LEAST two different versions of this game!  ~opening with a grammatical error and completely ridiculous thought.  Bold move!

I've stopped playing because people are all about competition and the people who would rather just convert some awesome models and play scenario games are getting screwed by the new rules systems.  ~yeah, that rule where you're forced at gunpoint to try and win is a real bitch There's a butt load of special rules ~solution: invent 2 game systems for extra special rules and counter rules and meta-gaming that have ruined the game for me. I have almost no interest in playing it, but I still feel the burning need to cleanse, purge, and kill the unclean.  ~read: I'm not interested in playing any more, but feel like I have a ton of energy for a complain-o-thon

I propose there be a competition set of rules with a rule book and codecies (as it is now) and a lighter version that isn't completely compatible but comes as a single book full of all the rules needed to play all the major armies in a fun and fast way. ~guess we'll then need a third set of rules for those who want to play for fun, but with special rules and a fourth for those who want a fast, competitive game

This faster version would have all the cool rules we love as scenario players, such as VDR(vehicle design rules) and MDR (monster design rules). The scenario book would be thicker and cost more than the competition core rule book but it would have more in it and be thicker ~thicker books are thicker. I realize this sounds like a contradiction (simplify the rules but make more of them) ~yes, I am confused by your notion of a denser rules set for a faster gaming experience, but the little special character rules are a lot harder to keep track of, than a rule that is universal for both armies playing. ~you mean like all those USRs that already exist?

The competition core rule book could cut out a lot of the fluff to make it thinner and easier to carry to tournaments.  ~hmmm if only they would make two different rule books: a thin one and then a thicker one with lots of fluffy goodness.  Perhaps the thick one could be a hardback.

I think these changes are LONG overdue. But if it were up to me, I would produce THREE versions of the rule book. ~I'm beginning to thank the dark gods of chaos that it's not up to you.  I'd still like to hear about your proposed 2 book system spread out over 3 books, though I would also post a digital copy of a more realistic rule book online. The 40K "Realism" rules would expand weapon ranges and make bombardment pieces, such as the Basilisk and Deathstrike unusable on anything but massive tables (more than 10 feet).  ~golly if only GW could produce a book to handle large games and over sized tables.  What a world that would be, eh?

Discuss. ~FUCK YOU!!!

Ultra111- Well their isn't anything stopping you and your mates having a friendly game.  ~They're doesn't appear to be anything stopping your ability to cock up homophones.

You don't have to follow the rulebook 100%, you can have house rules, create your own scenarios etc.

As you said, the majority of players are competitive. Now, as a business, GW want to appeal to them, as they are the main consumers. ~I think anecdotal evidence would suggest that these groups are roughly equal in size and that the current rules do a decent job of accommodating everyone.  Why would they produce lots of books like what you suggested for the minority? ~pissing away capital is fun?

And at the end of the day, like I just said, you can create your own stuff based around what you want.

GrimzagGorwazza- my friends and i had just this discussion, we fixed it by allowing units form 3rd ed codexes onwards in apocalypse games, as well as vdr, mdr rules. ~I think you should create a subset of rules for an even smaller cross section of your friends that allows the use of rouge trader rules, but not 2nd ed.  The 2nd ed rules are reserved for a few other friends that only want to play using those rules plus a hybrid of kill team and apocalypse This allows over the top fluffy characters from say the 3.5 edition chaos codex as well as special rules armies like the legion of the damned list etc. It just means you have to play in private clubs instead of in gw stores.  ~does the manager put on his union suit, grab a shotgun, and shout 'git offer' my prop'rty' if you try to experiment with new rules with other consenting adults?

chromedog- I disagree.  ~I agree that you disagree

It needs to be rewritten WELL and PROPERLY. :D

It is already written badly. To re-write it badly doesn't change that.

They already grammar english fail, and math fail.  ~grammar english fail just ripped a hole in space and time

Katie Drake- That's all we need, yet another way to divide the hobby into secular groups.  ~I'm a southern revisionist baptist gamer

GrimzagGorwazza- Gotta say it always has been. ~no shit the hobby is divided.  The argument here is that it doesn't need to be further divided There are always gamers more focussed on winning then having a laugh, just like there are always people who want to paint a model over spending hours on their army list. i've never been a seriously competative player but i still came up with tounament builds for 3rd and 4th ed. I wouldn't even try to build a competative army now, i feel it would just be one of the cut outs that seem to be run in this edition.  ~dear Internet:  open your fucking eyes and see the wide variety and variation present in net lists.  Hugs, Dethtron

KatieDrake-  It's always been secular yes, but it shouldn't be. I don't think one big happy family is something that could ever be achieved, nor do I think it would even be any good if it did happen, but more people seeing eye to eye would be nice.  ~hell, I'd be happy with people being less generally ignorant to each other.  Though that would put me out of a job....

I'm sorry that you feel that building a competitive army in 5th edition would be so unsatisfying. All I can say is that in my experience, the really good lists aren't cookie-cutter, though there is a lot of redundancy (by that I mean multiples of the same units).  ~would you like to join me on a campaign to save the Internet gaming society from itself?

~I think this is directed at the OP What game are you playing? Seriously, what? You're going to have to expand on this because I have no idea how hobbyists are getting screwed by the new rules.

GrimzagGorwaza- I'm assuming this relates to the nerfing of a lot of the old special rules. The imperial guard traits, the chaos deamonic gifts, the index astartes specialist chapter rules. ~yeah because Rex clearly wants a simpler game that plays faster and is fluffier.  So taking away all of those complicated rules would... aww shit All of these added layers to the game which made each encounter interesting. It was never enough to know you were fighting marines cause they could be anything fromflesh tearers to imperial fists and all had their own special niches. ~if only there was a way to change the way codex marines or other armies function.  Maybe they could make special characters that would change your armies traits or even shift around the FOC slots I still feel that the 5th ed rules have taken a big chunk of this flavour which is why my group still plays a big chunk of the old rules.

Katie Drake-  Ah, that. Yeah, I wouldn't call that nerfing so much as outright removing and for good reason - it was way too complex, with too much bookkeeping and so on. ~but we want an easier to play game that is more complex.  Why Katie, why? Also, it made any sort of tournament a complete farce as the number of imbalanced Space Marine Chapters alone numbered what, a dozen? More? Add in variant lists for the non-power armored races and you have a mess. I had fun in 3rd and 4th edition with the very rules that you're referencing - in fact, I started my Flesh Tearers army in early 4th, just before the Index Astartes article that was published about the Tearers was declared tournament illegal, so I can relate to what you're saying as far as enjoying the crazier elements of the game is concerned.

~I think the following is again addressed at the OP your post is pretty much one giant contradiction. ~now if he were to contradict his contradictions would that get us back to some kind of stasis?  You're saying you want a game that plays faster and simpler, yet has complex rules like designing your own vehicles and monsters (and probably characters too)? ~I don't see any contradictions in this logic It doesn't work like that. If you want the game to play fast and smooth, you want to minimize the number of rules there are to remember and write them in an extremely clear fashion, not add more and more to bog the game down.

"Little special character rules" are not hard to keep track of. To use an example that almost everyone can relate to, how hard is it to remember that all your melta and flamer weapons are twin-linked and that all your thunder hammers are master-crafted if Vulkan is in the army?  ~hey, I can't even remember my girlfriend's phone number, so...

Answer: Not very hard.

All in all, I'd have to say that I'm really not at all a fan of the proposed ideas.  ~now, tell us how you really feel

GrimzagGorwazza- I'll agree that the new rules streamline things pretty well but can't help but feel we're approaching the limit of streamlining without compromising creativity.  ~how is a still arguably quite complex game stifling your creativity, exactly?

I believe that what the op was trying to suggest was not to get rid of the current ed of rules, but to republish or rewrite the older edition rules ~yeah, I don't think that's what he was getting at at all which had so much extra toppings on that you couldn't fit the whole thing in your mouth without cutting it into potions. ~do you often have problems fitting the whole thing in your mouth?  Maybe it's time to work on that gag reflex

this way fans of the 5th ed rules could happily carry on playing as they are now and tournies etc could be played with the 5th ed rules. Us storyline gamers who miss playing with the crazy overbalanced armies would have a 5th ed S-type (storyline edition) that was horribley broken but in which a squad of space marines could have any number of rules depending on their chapter. ~if only there were chapter specific rules available to marines.  Fuck even I'm getting sick of the "if only..." joke at this point :(

Chaosftw- If anything that just makes things more confusing. People would start mixing the two versions together and more headaches begin. Instead of speeding the game you will now slow it down with more debates and disputes. ~late to the party much?  But thanks or repeating all of that for us, really

Its just like sports or anything else in life. Things change for what ever reasons, you don't always like everything but it doe snot ~comes from a female deer with a cold mean you stop watching those sports, or stop going to work because of some rule changes, etc. You just learn to live with them and make the best out of what you got.  ~or start complaining like a raving lunatic

I dont agree with 5th completely but I don't hate it. Im really not fond of planet strike and all the "expansion" books but again, just gotta life with it and make due.


GrimzagGorwazza- Clearly you are a fan of the new rules or you wouldn't have argued so angri...passionately against the idea. The point remains that there are still oldschool gamers who strongly dislike the new rules. ~and GW sales have increased over the course of the new edition, so who do you think is in the minority now?  I for one could be happy playing version 4 rules but as all of the new codexes are produced in the 5th ed format and are less and less compatible with the old stuff it makes it increasingly difficult incorperate new and old together.  ~but I thought you and your friends had it all worked out.  What went wrong over the last few posts?

what if these overpowered rules were marketed in a similar way to apocalypse and planetfall. ~I thought those were the overpowered rules An expansion rather then a full rules set, including a lot of older rules that were phased out this edition and relevent modifications to make them more balanced.  ~balanced overpowered units?  Can jumbo shrimp be one of those Call it warhammer 40k veteran units. Include rules which can be added to existing codexes to change how they play, include the vdr rules etc. ~ah you're streamlining things again I see Effectively you wouldn't need a whole new rulebook and codex, just a list of things you could add by using this expansion.

Amoeba Bait- That would be something I would like to see; something that allows you to create imensly characterful units. Sure Imperial Guard veteran squads are cool, but I want a sniper that can no-scope baddies on the run; relentless please. I want a guy duel weilding bolt pistols! ~gee if only somebody made a set of rules that allowed you to give specialized rules to individual models.  I think it'd be great if they called it Kill Team and put it in a book of extra battle missions even

I think having something like this, allowing you to create eilite squads would be a great expansion, and I'm not talking about Kill Team; ~aww shucks I'm talking about an Army of Veterans; survivors of a decade long siege, feral worlders on a post apocolyptic wasteland. stuff like that.  ~I think what you actually want is a roleplaying game.  Now if only somebody would create roleplaying rules set in the 40k universe....

Wusword77- This, honestly, sounds like nothing but crap. You can still play scenario games, there are 3 expansions (PlanetStrike, Apoc, and CoD) and the Battle Missions books. ~but I don't think you get it.  There should be 2 completely different versions of the game.  Clearly it's utterly impossible for all types of gamers to be pleased any other way There's even the Planetary Empires "expansion" to add flavor to any scenario type of game. 

I'm not quite sure of what "special rules and counter rules" you're referring to in the main rule book so I can't comment on that, but your statement about meta-gaming shows you lack an understanding of what meta-gaming actually is.

Heres a secret, when you buy a codex and then buy the troops you think are cool in the codex, YOU'RE META-GAMING!  ~oh no, I'm a meta gamer

Why would you have the "heavier" version of the game be the competition? For Competition you want the games to go faster so you can get more games in.  ~but I want a heavier competitive set, so looks like we're going to have to create another rules set for you

ROT- I don't understand the OP's issue in any sense of the problem.

40k is a fair game, all armies roughly equal; ~ummm a good split between competitive and friendly game and it's got adaptable rules.

There is nothing true about your statement saying the game is against people just converting, or whatever rubbish that was.  ~now I don't have the rule book handy, but I seem to remember there is a rule saying that painting, converting, or having a good time are strictly prohibited and punishable by being thrown out of an airlock

If you think a game sucks, don't play it? You wouldn't run around saying Monopoly's rules should be changed, just because you suck at it.  ~but I think that if you're the shoe you should add +1 to your die rolls and if you're the iron and land in an occupied space the prior occupant takes a S6 hit with no saves of any kind allowed causing instant death.

All it takes a minor amount of maturity to make a game fair, and enjoyable for both sides; if you're saying that in every single game, you feel someone is cheating; then it's most likely that you're the immature one.  ~???

Just man up really; Asking a game to change it's already crystal clear rule set, ~??? just shows your own incompetence as a wargamer. If the majority of us find the game fair and think the rules are adequate; then there's something wrong with the minority.  ~that's right:  anything that's popular is automatically right.

Don't mean to rant, but to be honest, this is retarded.  ~I know you are, but what am I?

bitsandkits- Im a very casual player, so can never really get my head around the whole broken rules debate, people trying to gain advantage by telling you lies about what a unit can do, cant be that common? ~you probably don't get the debate because you don't know the difference between using broken rules and getting lied to and in any case if they are genuinely trying to win by cheating i would just pack up my models and wish them good luck with there cheating. ~Jesus H. Tap Dancing Christ, can somebody teach the youth the difference between there, their, and they're?  Anybody?  Teachers maybe... I cant understand the competitive play thing either, If you only get off on the winning and cant enjoy the hobby without it you missing the point of "play".  ~looks like I forgot that no competitive player has ever had fun ever without winning

Can anyone give an example of a broken rule that does not have a common sense solution or FAQ/errata available for it? ~weighted dice

And i dont just mean "TLOS is shit", i mean a rule that is genuinely broken and why you say its broken and why you cant logically see a solutionLine of Sight (p16 40k 5th)

True Line of Sight - Drawing Line of Sight directly from a model's eye view.

KatieDrake- -_-

No, that's not being a competitive player, that's being an asshole. There's a difference.  ~slow clap

Winterous- Summing up this thread:

OP is whinging because he doesn't like the competitive nature of the game, and wants a 'casual-gamer' version.

House rules exist for a reason.

Lots of people saying things, mostly disagreeing with OP.  ~ <3

~okay people, as you can imagine this whole shit sandwich is spread out over at least another 5 pages that I can't even bear to continue looking at.  Stella Cadente, disciple of the first Zionist church of the Melissia, shows up at some point and it makes me want to shave off all of my skin and jump into a pile of lemons.  This whole thing is really more than I can take.  Read the original thread in its entirety if this didn't satiate your appetite for insanity.


Von said...

"~does the manager put on his union suit, grab a shotgun, and shout 'git offer' my prop'rty' if you try to experiment with new rules with other consenting adults?"

I've met GW managers who'd do this if they had shotguns. Folks roun' these parts don't take kindly to yer fancy 'experiments'...

Heretic said...

Damn it Katie! You're making me want to get back on Heresy, just to fix this kind of shit. Good job keeping the fight for reason alive on Heresy.

Katie Drake said...


I made it onto the Friday Night Internet Fight! I officially win at life.

Also, thanks for the props Heretic. :)

Gx1080 said...

Only one thing clear from that thread:

Stella Cadente is a cunt.

Gx1080 said...

Oh, can't believe that I read 6 pages.

So, Mr. OP, special characters make the game complicated but chapter traits/doctrines don't? And having plenty of armies available for codex is bad because you are a lazyass?

I feel sorry for the military if they have to put up with such a retard.

Brent said...

DT: I'm surprised you missed the 'whinging' in the last poster's comment - there's got to be one good chicken wing joke in their somewhere!

Brent <--- (I know you've noticed my bad habit; I'm waiting for the crackdown!)

Alex said...

Something tells me that RexTalon matches the description of "Young Ponytail Guy" from the "Creatures, Weirdos, Freaks, and Minions" on Bringer of Victory

The_King_Elessar said...

If I were to list the Top Ten reasons I never seem to visit Heresy anymore, Stella Cadente would probably be three of them.

My fav quote - "which had so much extra toppings on that you couldn't fit the whole thing in your mouth without cutting it into potions." - Yes, because cutting things up into liquid form is a well-known way to aid swallowing. :/

I hate idiots, who so desperately need the validation for their DELIBERATELY UNCOMPETITIVE PLAY, that they DEMAND GW writes rules for them, and no doubt holds their dick while they piss on those of us who have the intellect to change rules we don't like, if we so desire.

If you don't like competitive play, don't go to tournaments, dickwads.

The_King_Elessar said...

Oh, also - "a more realistic rule book online. The 40K "Realism" rules would expand weapon ranges" - GTFO.

Oh noes! My super-soldiers in space with jetpacks aren't realistic enough, in their fights against the self-replicating hyper-aggressive space mushrooms, the technologically superior space-elves with their psychic powers and guns made out of a bone-plant...and those living dead robot zombies...

Waaaa! I wants moar realisms!!

Winterous said...


And hi TKE :3

Anonymous said...

Hilarious. Check out RexTalon's final word - he's selling all his 40k stuff to buy a bullpup semiauto. Wonder if this is Stelek's stalker?

Katie Drake said...

Possible. I made a final semi-witty quip in response to his big post of stupid. Life is good when idiots go away.

Archnomad said...

"~I think you should create a subset of rules for an even smaller cross section of your friends that allows the use of rouge trader rules, but not 2nd ed."

I hope that's deliberate. I really do.

Good FNIF as always mate. Reminds me why I stay the fuck away from forums.


Dethtron said...

arch: I hate to say it, but I think you found a legitimate typo. That's what I get for making fun of homophone fails so much- fuck one up myself :)

Winterous/Katie: it's rare enough taht 1 person involved in a fight find their way over to dick move, but to have the only 2 people who weren't being complete asshats involved is just priceless. thanks for commenting guy & gal.

SandWyrm said...

You had me at "Doe Snot". :)